Thanks @circuitrider CC can always count on you for snarky remarks and picking apart comments :))
But what makes you draw the conclusion that my family is “solidly middle class” just because we are financially savvy and planners? And because our S attends school with a FA package? UMC would better describe my family.
@Ohiomomof2 you make a great point and that’s very true. Something we definitely considered for our older S. Is it fair to assume the kids to which you reference are in OH? I’m referencing CA kids who typically stay in CA and attend UC or CSU schools over LACs. Maybe @rwmannesq can weigh in on this topic but that’s my observation.
@Chembiodad we have yet to visit the Claremont consortium, and not sure if younger S will be interested. We’ve been to ones that are small, private Christian schools. It’s weird but I consider them LACs but if you were to Google search them sometimes they land on a LAC list sometimes not. He is stem leaning but still undecided on what to study in college yet. He does well in both stem and liberal arts classes.
@katliamom You do make some good points about upper level math and physics classes at LACs. But I would be careful about attributing personality types to LACs vs universities; ie shy kids are better suited for LACs. It really is a personal fit thing. Some shy kids will like the anonymity of a big school, some big personalities will thrive in a small LAC setting. And some kids will do well no matter where you plant them.
@katliamom Very useful info you provided just above, thanks.
I went to look at Amherst’s math dept recs for potential PhDs and they recommend a sequence that includes a few UMass courses, I think 4. So that may be the sweetest spot of all - a LAC (with close prof relationships and advising and such) in a consortium with a university with advanced offerings.
@katliamom, there isn’t any source documentation on the supposed communication from Swarthmore - as one of few LAC’s that offers an engineering program it has a very deep math curriculum; others that don’t offer “pre-professional” engineering programs also have very deep applied math offerings - one I didn’t mention in my prior post is Harvey Mudd as it’s math program is universally recognized as outstanding.
@CALSmom, that makes sense as small private Christian schools are likely to have a very different profile than the LAC’s I referenced. If he is interested in both STEM and non-STEM liberal arts classes (the reason why I said “both” is STEM, outside of Engineering and some deeper CS concentrations, is very much a part of the the LAC lexicon), then LAC’s sound like a great fit. Since CA only has the Claremont Consortium as a highly selective LAC option, you son would need to be wiling to travel at least to the Midwest and predominantly the East coast for the most selective schools.
@wisteria100 – FYI, I’m not the author of those comments; they were written by a poster who usually writes in the International Students forum.
@Ohiomomof2 – Barium says (again, I’m not arguing, just sharing her insights) that it’s often not very easy to take advantage of “consortium campus” classes, however highly this benefit is touted by the participating schools. She says, if you don’t have a car, it can be near impossible to arrange your schedule, since both campuses tend to offer classes in the same general time-frame.
The list you gave is interesting, but it’s hardly surprising that it contains the 4 LACs it does – they’re mostly specific math/science schools. Note the lack of any Seven Sisters schools or Amherst, Carleton, Middlebury or Barnard – elite LACs all.
Teams from liberal arts colleges have been known to perform within the top 30 when against schools from all categories in the U.S. and Canada in the Putnam Mathematical Competition.
Top LAC programs typically offer 15-20 courses beyond multi-variable calculus (with ~12+ on the junior/senior level). The possibility of limited course selection should be considered on a school-by-school basis, but should not be generalized to include all liberal arts colleges.
For the strongest LAC math students, a semester in Budapest for complementary course topics would be encouraged.
@Chembiodad / @katliamom - I’ve typed enough on this discussion about Swarthmore, so I was going to just let it go…but…
The document above is a 10 year old link (still on Swat’s site…they are really bad at website maintenance) that basically says “over the 10 years ended 2005 Swat produced the 4th highest percentage of PhD’s”. The past couple of years we’ve slipped a bit, and this is how we get back to it.
As noted by the author (a Swat/Princeton grad), he’s confident he was better prepared than most of his PhD peers.
If you click on the historical button, you’ll see Swarthmore is a top 5 producer of PhD’s over the past 40 years regardless of timeframe. Math may not be as prolific as other majors (I didn’t look / investigate), but to suggest someone at Swarthmore would struggle for acceptance into elite programs doesn’t align with 4 decades of fact.
As a group, the LAC’s do extremely well in PhD productivity.
I just thought I’d add to the discussion the personal experience of an elite LAC grad in mathematics who went on to an elite graduate program. She offers valuable insights.
I might also add, that I have a nephew who turned down huge FA package offers at top LACs to study physics at the College of Creative Studies, which is part of UC Santa Barbara. He was advised he’d get much quicker access to advanced classes at CCS than at any LAC. The advice was right: he was doing graduate-level work starting in his freshman year.
Depends on the consortium. The one I mentioned is walkable (it’s a mile), or free bus-able if one doesn’t want to walk, and it’s pretty typical for students to take classes at the other schools. Again, we’re talking about servicing a small handful of students (math majors who want PhDs) , but if they want to make it happen it’s not that hard.
That is not true of all consortia, of course. Bryn Mawr to Penn would definitely be more challenging.
I’m guessing any of the Claremonts to Mudd would also be pretty easy.
I found her posts in the 2013 thread, finding I disagree with some of what she says though.
Seems the grads from the Williams link above were mostly doing what she says the MIT grads were doing, for example.
@katliamom, always wonderful to hear anecdotal success stories, and agree they aren’t limited to top-10, top-25, or top-100 schools. That said, I’ll stick with verifiable data as has provided by @EyeVeee and others.
@circuitrider no, not typical just sharing my perspective growing up in my town. In no way was I saying it’s the immigrant CA family profile. Life experiences shape you as a person and can offer a different viewpoint. My intent was to enrich this discussion, not to be picked on. Sharing my first gen story was to show how the American dream really plays out in my situation.
Somehow this thread has wandered from advice for pre-law students to math PhD production, with interesting detours like the job prospects for philosophy majors along the way. Closing the thread.