So you’re sayin’ he was unprepared?
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My daughter did not take Calc in hs, so she started in Calc I in college (an engineering school). More than half the students were repeating it from hs. I guess I don’t understand the requirement that students HAVE to have had calc in hs if they are going to take it again in college, in the same class as those who haven’t had it in hs.
My daughter got an A in calc (and all her math courses) because she had a very good foundation in math from just taking hs courses (and because she worked really hard every single night-some who were repeating thought they knew it already and didn’t do so well the second time through). Her high schools (plural) did offer calc AB/BC and maybe even higher, but she changed schools 3 times, once in the middle of a semester, and it wasn’t possible for her to get ahead in math. I think she did fine. I guess MIT wouldn’t have taken her because she didn’t take the highest math offered, but she could do the work.
Isn’t it ironic that MIT only takes the best of the best, those who took Calc AB or BC and got an A (because they also want those 4.0 gpas so they aren’t taking those who got a C in calc AB) but then have them retake calc I because their math foundation isn’t good enough to move on? I don’t get the requirement to have had it only to make them take it again.
MIT teaches it as a much higher level than the AP course; hence it is expected to be repeated. True for other classes as well. I know of one intro physics course where an AP physics C score of 5 means that you should be able to pass the university course, nothing more
At MIT, they only have to retake calculus if they do not pass the advanced placement criteria. These criteria allow taking a more advanced course with an AP 5, A-level A* or A, IB 7, French 16, German 13, or CAPE 1 in the appropriate math areas / exams. MIT also recommends that students intending advanced placement take a calculus self-assessment.
MIT’s class schedule for math lists the following number of recitations:
- 18.01: 7 (for students who did not have calculus before or who do not pass advanced placement criteria)
- 18.01A: 7 (for students with 5 on AP AB exam)
- 18.02: 7 (for students with 5 on AP BC exam or high enough scores on various international exams)
- 18.022: 3 (“more focus on mathematical concepts” than 18.02)
Using number of recitations as a proxy for expected student enrollment, it looks like about 17/24 of the incoming MIT frosh will start in a course more advanced than basic single variable calculus (i.e. not repeating the calculus that they learned before).
Many people with 5 on the exam will opt down a level. Why not do so? The courses are challenging enough; it helps to repeat, particularly first year.
Again, none of these students are among the nearly half of college kids dropping out, which is the original topic.
May I suggest a separate calculus thread for those so interested in this topic so as not to derail the OP?
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What are these “pseudo ‘academic’” fields of study? You mentioned Gender Studies above. Is Gender Studies “pseudo ‘academic?’” What are the others?
The UT Austin programs are not reteaching high school, they are teaching college level work. (See the detailed description of the Chem 301 course.) The professors need not be “social workers and learning disorder specialists.”
Earlier in the thread you indicated that “large numbers of students enrolled are either unprepared for or unsuited to higher education.” The Texas programs suggests that this may not be the case, and that there are simple and cost effective interventions that can greatly improve these students’ chance of graduating.
In other words, and returning to the topic of this thread, Texas wasn’t sending “too many unprepared/underprepared students to college.” The kids were prepared academically, but Texas Universities were nonetheless failing to create an environment where these students could succeed.
If Texas guts the programs it won’t be because of money. The programs are surely more cost effective than having 50% of students drop out. If Texas doesn’t have the political will to support these students, then that is a failing of Texas, not the students.
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So true! I have heard of some kids who changed their majors from pre-med or engineering because it’s difficult and despite putting in a lot of time and effort studying, they just don’t do well, so they switch to something easier. That said, most majors are not that difficult if you put in at least some effort like going to class, studying, doing the reading, doing the assignments…
I do get that being on one’s own for the first time can be hard. There are a lots of distractions as you said and they no longer have mom and dad reminding them to do stuff or asking “Is your homework done?”
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Yes, this aspect of the change from more supervised environment of high school to the relatively unsupervised environment of college trips up many students. Perhaps this is an aspect of students being unprepared (at the time) for college, but not in a way that is easily determinable (at an institutional level, such as a college admissions office) beforehand from high school records and such. It is not necessarily obvious to the students themselves or their parents either, until difficulty in college occurs.
Of course, this difficulty in the first semester or few of college does not always result in flunking out. But it can cause other issues:
- Loss of merit scholarship due to not meeting the needed college GPA.
- Not being able to get into a major with a high college GPA or competitive secondary admission.
- Not having a realistic path to earning a high enough college GPA for other goals (e.g. pre-med).
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Yes, I am definitely aware of such teachers at my kids’ schools. My older kids and their friends talk pretty openly amongst themselves about which teachers are perceived as biased against certain races or female students. And no, I have never done anything about it beyond advising my kids choose schedules that avoid such teachers. I am under the impression that some kids go to the school administration, but I’d rather my kids just avoid the teachers. I don’t want any negative repercussions for my kids or for them to be perceived as making waves.
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Being prepared means being ready for a college as it is and with what it currently offers. For some, that may be extensive support and tiny classes. For others, it might be hands on learning. Whatever, one should expect to take on the college challenge for that particular school, however it currently is structured, or one is unprepared for that college. Not all colleges expect or are willing to engage in extensive hand-holding. Students should consider that.
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But could there be a Dunning-Kruger effect here, with some students who need more hand-holding being the most unaware that they do need it?
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Many students may have undiagnosed needs anytime between preK-grad schools.
If this was well known among students in the school, did that result in skewed demographics in different teachers’ classes due to students avoiding those teachers if they were of the race or gender that the teacher is believed to be biased against?
That is very unfortunate. Those teachers can do a lot of damage to self-image.
I’m not one to make a lot of noise, but if this had ever been something one of my kids had to deal with, I would have raised hell.
We did have an older woman teaching my oldest in kindergarten who was a few years past the point at which she should have retired. Very old school, and seemed to prefer boys. At first I resisted this idea, but then I kept hearing the complaints from various people, including some parents of boys. I saw a few concerning things for myself one day when I went to pick up my kid. I should have moved her out of that class right there and then, but we were new parents and still had a lot to learn.
Being too worried about “rocking the boat” was one of those valuable lessons. I’ve never regretted advocacy; but I have regretted sitting back.
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My daughter’s school, U of Wyoming, now requires a week long session for freshman as an introduction to college. They do seminars all week, and I think on Friday they go to different departments to learn more about that department and courses offered. My daughter is getting paid (a LOT- so the school must think it is worthwhile) to teach 2 workshops during the week and sit in the history department on Friday to answer questions (she’s a TA in the history dept and no one else wanted to do it).
My other daughter had a one credit class her first semester in college where they got points for attending different things on campus, like going to study tables in the library, a sports event, meeting with a professor in office hours, going to the financial aid office. The school just wanted them to have a good start to college.
I don’t think we’re sending too many academically unprepared students to college. If all they had to do was go to class they’d figure it out. Some have no problem picking up the new requirements (eating, sleep, exercise, medical care, laundry, limiting social life) and others still need a lot of direction. They may be inexperienced (and some think that’s unprepared) but they can learn. Another year of hs or employment may not help. Sometimes one needs to jump into the deep end and just start swimming.
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I tend to agree with this, although it’s just a general impression.
But I also cannot disagree with the general idea that, if we can spot deficiencies (be they academic, emotional maturity, etc.) we should try and resolve them before the kids head off. I agree that ‘figuring it out’ at the four-year school is not ideal.
Said another way, I agree with others, and am of the general impression, that there are a lot of kids who probably should not be going off to 4-year universities who nonetheless will, and a % of them will struggle.
It would be wonderful if we could de-stigmatize community college in our culture. That, IMO, is the best place for a incubation period or a complete do-over. But unfortunately we often tend to equate junior college with failure. Maybe that’s too strong, but you can often see the look in people’s eyes when someone tells them Junior is going to JC and will then look to transfer.
Hey, one of my LS classmates transferred from Rockland Community College to Yale! And as has been written about here, it’s a great way to get into a selective state university like Cal, UCLA or University of Washington. I’d be interested to know what the arrangements are in Michigan, Virginia, Wisconsin, Texas and North Carolina as it relates to agreements, if any, between the state’s flagship campuses and the community college system.
The topic of the thread is: Are we sending too many unprepared/underprepared students to college? Perhaps this narrow my-way-or-the-highway approach to education has more to do with the drop-out rates than does the academic preparation of the enrolled students.
Those with money are much more likely to attend the “hand-holding” colleges with small classes, better academic and non-academic support, resources, etc. Likewise, they are more likely to have prepared for college by attending similar “hand-holding” primary and secondary schools. Maybe that is why wealth is the best predictor of academic success.
This would mean that kids with challenging SES profiles may be much more “prepared” for elite, resource-rich schools with smaller class size and much better support, even though these schools may be have much higher academic standards than where these kids usually end up. If so, then it isn’t “academic” preparation that is holding these kids back, it is something else.
The degree of what you might call “hand-holding” (smaller classes, more resources, better access to professors, better academic and non-academic support) is certainly a consideration for the types of families who frequent this website, but it is unfortunately not seen as a realistic consideration for the kids with challenging SES profiles.
But perhaps we agree? If “preparation” requires having access to wealthy “hand-holding” schools with small classes, more resources, and better academic and non-academic support (both in college and before) then most kids aren’t adequately “prepared” for college.
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Or do you mean:
If “preparation” requires having wealthy parents, then most kids aren’t adequately “prepared” for college.
?
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That’s a concise way of saying it.