Of course, the person’s spending habits matter. A frugal person can pay his/her own way on a lower income than a spendy person can.
Are you willing to pay or loan for the expensive ivy or top 20 schools instead of cheap state Univ.?
@88jm19 Then it seems to me you fit in with the many of us who don’t consider it the only item worthy of consideration.
Most people around me, including myself in my day and my lads in theirs, need to factor in cost when making the “which college” decision. I never advocate high debt for undergrad. Disappointed ex students I come across IRL have two reasons they feel they made the wrong college decision. High debt is one and that can happen from anywhere. Not being challenged enough is the other and that happens when high level students pick a school way beneath their ability when there’s no special program or decent Honors College. They usually picked it because it was free and wish they had paid (something) for a better place.
It doesn’t help to exchange one for the other when there are other options.
Hmm…@Creekland I’m not sure. I actually don’t think the ROI camp is hardcore ‘financial ROI is everything’. While it feels to me, maybe erroneously, that the ‘intellectually electrifying’ group doesn’t take the financial ROI into consideration enough. Maybe I’m just confused, while watching the Home Run Derby…lol.
When comparing schools (a la Consumer Reports-like) we kept coming back to our pro/con list and asking ourselves if a particular school was worth $250K versus $130K…not because $250K was a hardship for us (we had the money for both kids),_but wow, it’s $250K! So questioning the ROI (both financial and experiential) on $250K puts me in what camp? I thought I was ROI. 
Gotta say though- there are a lot of colleges which don’t seem to be “worth” the 130K (to use 88jm’s numbers). That’s the elephant in the room, not whether or not the folks who pay 250K are ignoring ROI, are chumps, are smart enough to be able to pay that but too stupid to understand how much money that is.
Parents shell out a heck of a lot of money to send their kid to University of New Haven (a private college). We read posts by parents who are taking out a HELOC to send their kids halfway around the country to attend Pace. Maybe not as expensive as some of the bigger and better known private institutions- but money is fungible.
These are all fine institutions in their own way and I am in no way knocking what they do. But there are a lot of regional type colleges which ride the coattails of sticker shock for the better known schools, and the halo effect they sometimes achieve just because they are cheaper isn’t always warranted. I know people paying MORE for Hofstra or Adelphi than they would have paid for Binghamton… or people paying MORE for Stonehill than they’d have paid for U Mass and LOTS of parents in NJ pay more for colleges which are in no way the academic equals of Rutgers and are quite inferior in many ways. Your kid doesn’t want to ride the bus to get around a campus as big as Rutgers? Fine. But you are sure paying a lot of dough for an inferior education to avoid a bus- which is not a premise which many people actually challenge.
@blossom don’t forget TCNJ. We’re struggling with this issue right now for D21. She has good stats, not Ivy good, but good. Where is the cut off for how much more to pay vs. TCNJ? Rutgers isn’t in the picture because of the size. But Rowan honors and TCNJ are great options and affordable. I honestly don’t know what premium I’d be willing to pay at this point, but it would definitely have to be a better education than she could get at TCNJ.
Only those who live and breathe by rankings or correlate value to price (there are many) assume the higher of either, the better the school. I recall reading quite a few moons ago (in an educational magazine of some sort) that most colleges increased their prices because they were perceived as “lesser” among parents for being lower cost. They were perceived better with a higher price tag. Perception among parents counts. They often direct junior to where they can go.
In the same article it talked about how many of those schools then opted to give basic merit scholarships to many applicants because not only did the higher price affect perception, so did the mindset of “earning a scholarship.” Essentially, if school X cost 40K they weren’t as good as school Y at 50K. However, if school X cost 50K and junior just got a scholarship for 10K, then it was a win-win for the school in perception, beating school Y. Junior and his/her parents will love school X.
When folks look at the schools - really look at them (academics more than climbing walls in the gym) - ROI is useful in the same way it is for selecting a car or house to buy - fit the purchase to the buyer including finances in the equation. Many just go on price or ranking or commute distance/location, better dorms, nicer t-shirt they sent or similar.
All of that is 100% different than whether minds can be stretched in many ways by going to college vs getting a library card. For our kids, we insisted a bachelor’s degree was the minimum “end stage” of their education (not grade 12 as the feds say). I don’t care if they want to be a plumber or factory worker or anyone else who doesn’t “need” that piece of paper. My lads may use their degrees - or not - it’s fine with us. We wanted them to get it. We wanted them to have the experience that we enjoyed in our days. They all enjoyed it.
They didn’t have to go to a Top 20 place. They selected their schools to fit them. One was Top 30, but it fit him. We don’t wish he’d have picked somewhere that he could have gone for free as his peer in school with similar stats did. That lad was one of the bored ones I mentioned. Both lads are in med schools now, so both “succeeded,” but my lad enjoyed his journey more by ROI not being the only point we considered when he selected his school. Other things mattered. He immediately tossed one that would have cost us 37K more per year in price than all of his other acceptances (it wasn’t a top school either - it was an ordinary LAC). We used ROI somewhat considering that school not to be worth an additional 148K, but it was an easy decision - took less than 5 seconds from reading the finance page they sent.
We are fortunate enough that we could insist our lads get a degree. They were all intelligent enough and while not full pay, we could find affordable options. Not everyone has that luxury. Even so, we shopped for affordable fit. We just didn’t insist on free when it wasn’t a fit otherwise even though it would have led to “success.”
NJ- what does your D want to study? And in terms of Rutgers and size- in some departments, the classes are small (like they are at most state flagships) once you get past the big survey type courses freshman year. There are philosophy seminars the same size as you’d get at Princeton; there are language and lit classes that are the same size as they would be at Rowan.
I know kids paying out of state to attend Delaware or Maryland because Rutgers is “too big”. In the context of another state’s flagship U- how is Rutgers too big?
Rutgers is much bigger than Delaware, but not that much bigger than Maryland. The negative cited for Rutgers is that it is not all one campus and kids have to take buses from one campus to another for classes. The advising, at least until a kid picks a major, was not great (at least for my son), as there was not one assigned advisor but an advising center where you met with whoever was there. My son was a bit lost so not a great experience for him, but would be for others. But many NJ kids get a great education at Rutgers and some of the departments are top notch.
One problem with TCNJ is that it admits by major and if the student does not get into a popular major, it is very difficult to get in later. One of mine strongly considered it but decided on a bigger OOS school that cost more but which was more diverse and had a wider range of majors. Rutgers was a close second, but did not have the major he wanted and which he has stayed with. The NJ schools are great, affordable choices for many kids. In our case, we were able to pay the difference between in-state and OOS (partially because NJ school are pricey to start with) but not for full pay privates. As Blossom says, it really depends on what major she wants and what is offered. You may also find that other schools with merit money may not be cost much more than either TCNJ or Rutgers.
She’s unsure right now - definitely NOT a STEM girl, which I think makes admittance a bit easier. She likes writing/communications but lately has an obsession with psychology - which she understands will likely require grad school and thus cheaper undergrad option. We’ve been researching like mad, keeping in mind that merit may likely make some schools cheaper than TCNJ, which isn’t great in that area. Luckily, we have time! She definitely wants small classes and to be able to build relationships with her profs.
UDel and UMD are both very popular around here!
@Creekland I completely agree with you on these 3 points. You’ve described many people in my community. I have no issue with it, because it’s their money…their decision. It’s just sad if the outcome is disappointing and it could have been averted with a little research and self-reflection.
@Creekland, this explains why we are coming from different directions. Yes, high debt is a huge source of unhappiness. However, what I have seen IRL is the disappointment of smart, capable graduates from expensive high ranked universities who are frustrated with “under-compensated jobs”. I actually can’t think of any kids who complain about not having been challenged.
Some articles say that a lot of college graduates have unrealistic salary expectations. In my area, I would say that’s true. It seems like many kids from our district thought an undergraduate degree from Northwestern, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, etc over UIUC would put them ahead compensation/lifestyle-wise. They don’t come out and say they made the wrong college decision, but there are quite a few frustrated parents and kids.
The recent grads I know may be an anomaly, but it seems too prevalent in my circle of acquaintances…and it seems disproportionately skewed from the $250K families. And it may be worthwhile to note that they aren’t disappointed with their university experience, but are frustrated that there wasn’t a greater return for their financial investment. Bigger investment led to expectations of bigger rewards.
https://www.valuepenguin.com/news/college-salary-expectations-survey
Could it be that many of them grew up in “upper middle class” families with fairly high spending habits and are shocked by the amount of money needed to maintain the comfortable lifestyle that they grew up with? Where such an amount of money is significantly higher than a reasonable expectation of entry level pay for a new college graduate (even in majors associated with entry level jobs that pay well)?
@ucbalumnus yes, that could be contributing to it. I don’t have direct knowledge of family finances, but there are a lot of stay-at-home moms and nice vacations, cars and homes. Some of these kids have also moved to high cost-of-living areas and that’s probably adding to the disappointment some are feeling. They may love their new city, but grew up with the finer things.
We definitely come from different areas. I’ve only seen this in a couple of news reports - never IRL. We don’t get many students who go to super selective colleges either, but those who do, do well and report back happy with life. That could also be somewhat due to what @ucbalumnus suggests in that we don’t have kids who expect to start off as CEO or VP when they graduate. It’s a very working class area. Upper middle class is rare. The lifestyle that goes with it is also uncommon as we have far more of our wealthy who would fit in with, The Millionaire Next Door rather than Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.
Yes, regional differences are sometimes startling.
And I should make it clear that these kids are really good young adults. They don’t act like entitled brats. They were academically strong students who engaged in extracurricular activities and community service. They don’t necessarily whine or complain, but their parents will often make comments that imply they are a little disappointed. Not because the young person doesn’t have a CEO or VP salary, but because they (both parent and kid) thought the ‘elite’ education would give them a leg up, so to speak. Social media probably doesn’t help, if you know what I mean.
“Not being challenged enough is the other and that happens when high level students pick a school way beneath their ability when there’s no special program or decent Honors College.”
YES, yes, yes, absolutely, @creekland.
Perhaps some people haven’t seen it happen and just don’t understand. I certainly have, both to friends from my own generation and to kids today. Finding an intellectual match is a BIG deal for a certain type of thinker. @mathmom ‘s post, above, about the CalTech friends’ get-together, describes it well.
Over the years, I’ve seen kids react in a few ways to the experience of fundamentally feeling intellectually out of place at their college or university – enduring the situation with ongoing disappointment and regret, double-timing their coursework and graduating sooner, seeking out a mentor or a small group of peers with whom they connect on an intellectual level, finding a particular activity outside of class to which they can dedicate their energy, transferring in frustration, and dropping out of college entirely.
There are many, many excellent colleges, and tons of amazing programs. Some kids will make the most out of any situation. But it’s important to acknowledge that the problem described by @Creekland is a very real risk for a particular subset of students.
It’s not always possible, and some would choose differently, but I really do understand why parents of such students would use a ton of savings, or even take on debt, to pay for a college or university or program that is closer match but is also significantly more expensive.
How did such students get through high school, where a top-end student is typically surrounded by not only students who will go on to less selective colleges (including the local open admission community college) and those who will not go to college at all? Or are we assuming that all such students attended elite high schools where 99% go to college, mostly to the more selective colleges? (Will such students who minimize contact with the broader range of humanity have trouble talking to a plumber like some college professor once wrote about?)
Also, any student who attends an admission safety (perhaps because s/he was rejected by reaches and matches, or because s/he needed the merit scholarships to afford to go to college) is likely to find himself/herself at the top end of the academic range at his/her college. The idea that a student at the top end of the academic range will find college to be unsatisfying implies that admission safeties will be unsatisfying – perhaps that is the real reason why safeties are so disdained around these forums.
Of course, attending a reach where one is at the bottom end of the academic range may not be a great thing either, especially if it is necessary to earn A grades in competitive curve-graded courses to reach goals like medical school, top 14 law school, or entry to a competitive admission major.
“How did such students get through high school?”
Well, over the years, I’ve seen kids react in a few ways to the experience of fundamentally feeling intellectually out of place at their high school – enduring the situation with ongoing disappointment and regret, double-timing their coursework and graduating sooner, seeking out a mentor or a small group of peers with whom they connect on an intellectual level, finding a particular activity outside of class to which they can dedicate their energy, transferring in frustration, and dropping out of high school entirely.
It is a real blessing for such students to be able to spend their college years in an environment that they find intellectually inspiring, surrounded by peers for whom intellectual rigor is likewise deeply valued.
Different kids react in different ways to feeling perpetually unchallenged and intellectually frustrated. Some kids are able to make the most out of anything, and will be happy wherever they go. It’s up to an individual family to decide the right course of action. What I’m saying is that I understand why some would make sacrifices, under the circumstances described by @creekland, to send their child to what they considered to be the right school for him or her.
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@ucbalumnus wrote:
“The idea that a student at the top end of the academic range will find college to be unsatisfying implies that admission safeties will be unsatisfying – perhaps that is the real reason why safeties are so disdained around these forums.”
My own perspective about this is mixed – yes, some students at the top end of the academic range will find college to be unsatisfying. One of my high school friends was admitted to a particular school on full scholarship and was surprised to find herself bored out of her mind. She transferred out after a year – to your university, actually – and was deeply satisfied with her remaining years (and didn’t regret the debt she took on in order to attend.) But, no – just because a school is a safety doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s not a fabulous honors program within the school, or that the student’s major isn’t incredibly intellectually stimulating with outstanding faculty. It can definitely work out well. That said, it’s true that not all schools can satisfy, either overall or through particular programs, some students’ deep longing for intellectual excitement and rigor… and that’s the challenge. Different kids will react to that situation in different ways.
“Of course, attending a reach where one is at the bottom end of the academic range may not be a great thing either, especially if it is necessary to earn A grades in competitive curve-graded courses to reach goals like medical school, top 14 law school, or entry to a competitive admission major.”
Agreed. Again, individual students will deal with such an environment in different ways, but it can be a real problem, as you’ve observed.
I think we need to define “cheap state university.” We certainly can’t be talking about a a Virginia resident whose child attends William and Mary or UVA at instate costs. The wording here is misleading.
If this student gets accepted to an Ivy League school, there is no reason why she can’t find an acceptable safety school with some merit money. My cousin’s daughter chose the U of South Carolina honors even though Duke was her first choice. She’s a quirky, intellectual kid and is very happy.
There’re many categories of “fit” that applicants and their families have to evaluate: academic fit, intellectual fit, social fit, geographical fit, financial fit, etc. Unless $300k can easily be spared, financial fit has to be among the most important, even for typical full-pay families. Are the benefits from better fits in the other categories, if any, sufficient to justify the higher cost, assuming it’s still affordable? Different families, often rightly, will come to different conclusions.