<p>Powerof0,
I understand your parents’ math, but I think they have left out a factor.</p>
<p>If the only end result that matters is immediate “bang for the buck” in the receiving end, they may be right. I don’t know how to compute the specifics, nor how much money you are likely to earn out of school</p>
<p>But there is at least one other factor, and that is the experience you will gain that will educate you to be able to continue to contribute, to lobby, to educate, to volunteer, to whatever, to make a positive difference in this world.</p>
<p>Let’s call it another type of post graduate education.</p>
<p>You ask if this is egoism. No. If you are genuinely concerned about helping a group of people, devote yourself to doing so, and learn about situations and understand ambiguities that will help you to continue to do so in other environments, the fact that you also feel good about it does not make it egotistical.</p>
<p>Until you come at me with some proof for that first statement of yours, let’s leave it outside of this discussion - it has no place in a deliberation involving facts.</p>
<p>Intelligence plays a role in being a good teacher, but experience and a willingness to work can be balanced against it. Two years are simply not enough. Moreover, high teacher turnover is not good for the morale of a school.</p>
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<p>I think the context of my assertion was rather clear - it’s in the teacher-to-teacher relations where things often go wrong. As someone with extensive class experience myself, I think I can say with the benefit of firsthand experience that not having “an air of authority” in the classroom will kill any chance of success. However, your reference to classroom control has nothing to do with my original assertion - let’s not get sidetracked.</p>
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<p>I think any reasonably rational person can say with a fair amount of certainty that the above arguments about TFA are a crockpot full of nonsense. TFA isn’t necessarily ineffectual or offensive, but putting volunteers on a 2-year stint into a school environment where they have no institutional memory or intention of gaining any can frustrate people, and I think that’s where many of these bitter allegations come from. </p>
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<p><em>snaps</em></p>
<p>Frazzled1, you hit it spot on. The main problem with TFA is people’s perception of it - and the ensuing difficulties - not the program itself.</p>
<p>ksarmand, I <em>snapped</em> somewhat myself when reading your post #6, particularly this:
My question - why do principals hire TFA corps members if the organization is so ineffectual, offensive (to teachers, as your post implies), and damaging to students/schools - was not intended to address your specific statements, but rather statements and allegations about TFA from several CC threads, and elsewhere, over the years.</p>
<p>I was admittedly a bit snippy regarding the “air of authority” comment because it seemed to me that you’d painted many TFA teachers with a negative brush by saying it. I recognize the difference between classroom management and peer relationships.</p>
<p>Something happened as I was writing this and I accidentally posted the first sentence without including the rest, which is intended to give more context to my remarks, and not to offend.</p>
<p>*I’m still looking for documentation showing that school systems must pay both a fee to TFA and the full teacher salary and benefits for each TFA corps member hired. If TFA members do indeed cost school systems more money than other new hires, I can understand the hostility on that point. I can state absolutely that my d’s school system was not charged a fee by TFA for her placement. There’s no money in her county for that kind of expense.
*</p>
<p>Seattle is using other funding to cover TFA fees but not salary.</p>
<p>mini, thanks for that link. most interesting. confirms what I suspected, frankly. not that TFA can’t a good experience – just not the transformative answer to public school issues that it sometimes pretends to be. </p>
<p>“we find that certified teachers consistently produce significantly stronger student achievement gains than do uncertified teachers. Alternatively certified teachers are also generally less effective than certified teachers. These findings hold for TFA recruits as well as others. Controlling for teacher experience, degrees, and student characteristics, uncertified TFA recruits are less effective than certified teachers, and perform about as well as other uncertified teachers.”</p>
<p>One question not addressed in the study were the odds of a non-TFA uncertified teacher staying on three years and then getting certified. TFA teachers who stayed on, became teachers, and became certified, taught well apparently, but there were/are very few of them. So it seems that most school districts seem to use TFA teachers basically to chew 'em up and spit 'em out, the result perhaps being that poor communities might have done better without having TFA to begin with, even if it benefited school district budgets.</p>
<p>Interesting article in today’s NYT Magainze about the efforts (successful so far) to turn around an inner city Bronx school. The visionary principal is ambivalent about TFA, as is one of the TFA teachers currently working for him: </p>
<p>He echoed… concern about fundamentally not being part of the [inner city] community. “I have a vocabulary that comes from always having gone to really high-level schools,” he said. “I feel like I’m probably talking over half the class half the time.” This, he feels, diminishes his already tenuous authority in the classroom: “Who am I, this 24-year-old white kid from the Upper West Side, to tell a bunch of kids from a very different background how they’re supposed to behave and act?”</p>
<p>Feel compelled to note:
The discussions regarding funding and efficacy of the TFA program are very interesting.
But----Haven’t we come even farther than normal from the help and advice requested by the OP?</p>
<p>Ksmard - looking at the background of the TFA people v. the average SATs/ACTs, any standard of college kids who historically have designated themselves as attempting to obtain education certification (which are at the bottem of college kids), yes I do think the TFA people are on average smarter than the average tradional teacher.</p>
<p>BTW, according to NYC, about 1/2 of all non TFA teachers wash out in first 3 years.</p>
<p>“But----Haven’t we come even farther than normal from the help and advice requested by the OP?”</p>
<p>Not really, I don’t think. Among the questions raised was the value of joining to TFA to the world, and whether there might be more value instead in making a monetary contribution. We didn’t answer it of course, but I think the discussion is in fact on point.</p>
<p>actually, your parents don’t really seem to know what they are talking about. teach for america pretty much gets you a job at any amazing corporation. i dont know why, but theres something about it employers love… its extremely competitve to get into though. it is definatley one of the best oppurtunities you can have</p>
<p>Thank you all so much for the thoughtful feedback. I also enjoyed reading the debate about TFA. :)</p>
<p>To answer some of your questions, I will be graduating with no debt, because my school offers very good financial aid. As for my career plans, I’m thinking of applying to medical school for an MD/PhD program (which will take more than 10 years, including residency)… If I end up practicing as a doctor instead of going into academia, I suppose I will make a lot of money. By my parents’ logic, I am basically denying this money to the people I want to help by spending two years on things that can possibly be more efficiently accomplished through donations. This makes me feel rather guilty because it’s almost as if I’m doing TFA/PC for selfish reasons. </p>
<p>Of course, my parents really have nothing to worry about, since I have a very low chance of getting in to either TFA or PC. Getting into medical school will probably be easier…</p>
<p>“This makes me feel rather guilty because it’s almost as if I’m doing TFA/PC for selfish reasons.”</p>
<p>Those are good enough reasons. And once you do it, you may find out that it is different (and more personally empowering) than you bargained for (even if it is a way for school districts to get babysitters on the cheap. LOL!)</p>
<p>Your parents seem to be trying to use emotional manipulation to get you to give up on your dream. I hope you realize that their argument basically boils down to, “You will actually be helping less if you’re in the Peace Corps than if you’re enjoying a nice cushy job.” This is crazy. Do not believe it.</p>
<ol>
<li>All the money in the world is useless if there’s no one to distribute it properly and actually physically carry out the tasks that money is for. Exhibit A: Haiti. There’s a shortage of volunteers there and that’s making the recovery process slow and incredibly painful, even though the money is there. What these humanitarian organizations need at this point are highly motivated people who are willing to stay there and help.</li>
</ol>
<p>Seriously, anyone can donate money, and working with the Peace Corps does not preclude you from donating money later on in life. What is desperately needed at many places around the globe, however, is actual help–with building houses and roads, giving out food and medicine, providing basic medical care, taking children to school and teaching them basic arithmetic, whatever. Money is nothing by itself.</p>
<p>(I’m not saying that there’s enough money to go around and nobody in the world is actually in need of money–just that there are more people willing to donate money than there are people willing to participate in the efforts this money is supposed to go toward, which is a problem.)</p>
<ol>
<li>Spending time helping those less fortunate than you and living life without the privileges you’re accustomed to will change your worldview, give you a wider sense of perspective than your work buddies will ever have, and teach you to be independent and thankful for what you have. If wanting to become more aware of the world you live in makes you selfish, then so be it.</li>
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<p>mafool is right that we’ve strayed from the OP’s question but I’m finding the conversation informative and perhaps the OP’s parents would, as well. I can see that I’ve been extrapolating my knowledge of my d’s circumstances and applying it to TFA in general. I had no idea that any TFA teachers were uncertified, because in my d’s region (DC/Prince George’s County), all teachers must be certified (though many TFA corps members have alternative certification). From the website:
</p>
<p>emerald, thank you for clarifying about TFA fees being paid by Washington STEM instead of school districts. According to Washington STEM’s website, it’s a nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting science education, and its support of TFA will work this way:
<p>kayf, teaching requires a particular skill set. High SAT scores do not insure effective teachers in and of themselves, nor does a higher score denote a higher level of intelligence. As I’ve said, I’m a fan of teachers and the teaching profession, and I’ll admit to being put off by your statement in post 31.</p>
<p>I would be hesitant to say that means that TFAers are smarter than the average teacher. And anyway, that doesn’t necessarily translate to success in the classroom.</p>
<p>D1 was accepted to both TFA and PC. She is currently a PCV in Africa and will be “wasting” the next two years. I must admit that I am closer to the OP parents in my feelings about both organizations and the opportunities they present my D1. But I still support her decision and know that she will complete her service and be a wiser, more resourceful, independent person than she currently is (and she’s pretty wise, resourceful and independent now).</p>
<p>While she asked my opinion, and I gave it freely, she was raised to trust her instincts and her beliefs and made her decision for herself. I would have rather she had picked TFA. At least she would have completed her 2 years and had a masters degree afterward. She also would have remained in the States and I would have been able to see her. But again, she only took my opinion under advisement. But I would never withhold my love and support (both emotional and financial) because of this decision.</p>
<p>One of the reasons she applied to both TFA and PC was that she really didn’t know what she wanted to do with the rest of her life. I’m hoping these 2 years will help her along the path towards that decision. Two years isn’t too long to “stop out” of the rat race that is “your future”. Now is the time, while she is young, to have this kind of experience before bigger responsibilities (job, bills, marriage, kids) make your life less of your own.</p>
<p>So I’ll be visiting Africa in about a year to see what she has been up to. At least we have internet and skpe (however occasionally) to keep in touch.</p>