One thing to also keep in mind regarding accounting is that one doesn’t necessarily need an undergrad major in it to join the profession. One HS classmate who was an Asian lit major at an Ivy was recruited straight out of the blue by one of the big-4 firms solely on the basis of her school’s rep, her undergrad GPA, etc. Though she wondered why they would recruit someone from a school which didn’t offer undergrad accounting major/courses and had some concerns, they put out all the stops so she ended up working for them for a few years. Along the way, they paid for courses needed to fulfill the prereqs to sit for the CPA exam as well as CPA prep.
She has now been working successfully as a CPA for nearly 2 decades going from the big 4 form to her current boutique accounting firm in the NYC area. .
I have another friend who entered the accounting profession by way of an undergrad philosophy major from a university ranked somewhere between 60 and 120. Did the one year Accounting Masters course and has now worked as a CPA for nearly a decade and half.
It also depends heavily on the specialization that is chosen to go along with the business major. A specialization in management or marketing is not typically as desirable as a specialization in accounting, management information systems, data & analytics, or finance, for example…
I also think that some people with business majors initially think it’s going to be easy, but once they find out they’re going to have to take courses like calculus, economics, finance, etc. (and even more rigorous classes like statistics, discrete mathematics, etc. depending on specialization), they find themselves switching to a non-business major.
“I think it’d be ludicrous to argue 2015 BBA graduates are more employable than a their CS and EECS counterparts.”
The % still seeking employment for BBA, CS, and EECS are virtually the same (7%, 9%, and 5%, respectively). Based on this metric alone, I would not say one is significantly more employable than the other two.
Interesting considering most IME wouldn’t consider calculus, economics, and statistics to be excessively harsh requirements as implied above.
In fact, many respectable/elite colleges require calculus, stats, and sometimes even Econ for most/all their majors…not just STEM, econ, math, or business majors.
On the flipside, I’ve known many undergrad b-school alums who managed to avoid taking calculus or stats and graduate.
Agree – big difference depending on the program–important to choose a quality program. Benefits to have quantitative competence — recommend Accounting, Finance or Econ major or concentration to gain those skills. Business majors are all not the same— the school and major/concentration matter. I was a bus undergrad and have a son in this major as well — worked out quite well going to a recognized program with a quantitative major.
Undergrad Wharton does not confer a business administration degree; all students receive a BSc. in Economics. The college(LAC) at Penn also has an economics department, they confer a BA in Economics.
More than 70% of Wharton grads do not go on to grad school as their degree serves them well in their career.
Although the Wharton bachelor’s degree title is BS in economics, the curriculum and courses are more similar to business majors, and it has AACSB accreditation in business. The BA in economics in Penn’s College of Arts and Sciences is a more typical economics major (with relatively high math for pre-PhD students).
As I said in my original post, I think the problem is K-12. Sending weak students to college does not help anyone. (I doubt very many employers are fooled).
Once these students are in college, the schools must then designate majors to absorb them, and unfortunately for business education, it becomes one of the chosen, it appears.
In the system that I am familiar with, these students may be studying business- in community colleges, but certainly not in our universities. While there are business programs that are significantly more selective than the university as a whole, I know of no business school where admission requirements are lower than the faculty of arts and science.
Clean up K-12 is the way to go. I find American students’ performance on PISA rather disturbing.
@ucbalumnus Thank you for pointing out the econ differences. I was not aware of that and will inform my son to ask permission if he can take the econ major econ classes instead of the ones in the business dept. I see your point and think my son would learn more within the econ side given a higher level of math. Good stuff from you ucbalumnus. As always.
@cobrat You are correct that there are other ways to become a CPA. But your missing the point of the fact that all the people you mentioned needed to go back to school to get the required courses. This is not just a few. It can equal a full two years of schooling if you did not take any of the business classes while in school. Those two years represent the core of the accounting degree. What you are suggesting is a six year path which can be done is four if you start that way.
“The college(LAC) at Penn also has an economics department, they confer a BA in Economics.
More than 70% of Wharton grads do not go on to grad school as their degree serves them well in their career.”
This is quite true. Although economics and business/finance are related, they are actually quite distinct and have somewhat different career paths at a university where both economics and business/finance are offered. The data from UCB actually tells such a story (Penn does not disclose such detailed info, I believe).
Based on the link provided by @ucbalumnus, let us take a look at the placement into investment banking from UCB economics and UCB Hass. The reason I choose investment banking is due to its good recruiting size and relative good pay based on Hass disclosure. Among the 194 responded Hass graduates, 29 were hired as investment banking analysts. Among the 228 responded UCB economics graduates, 5 were hired as investment banking analysts. If you look closely, the 5 economics hires were affiliated with Deutsche Bank, Macquarie Capital, Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, Nomura International (Hong Kong), and Perella Weinberg Partners. More interestingly, these 5 affiliations completely overlaps with a subset of Hass placement list. That is, on the Hass list, you can find at least 1 investment banking placement for Deutsche Bank, Macquarie Capital, Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, Nomura International (Hong Kong), and Perella Weinberg Partners.
This brought up the possibility that some or all of these 5 econ graduates have a dual degree with Hass. This possibility is quite real because Nomura Hong Kong and Macquarie are relatively rare hirings. In other words, if one only obtains econ degree from UCB without a dual degree from Hass, the chance of entering investment banking right out of gate is not particularly high.
Economics is a good major that trains young people think in a systematic and logical way. I am very happy that my S chooses economics as his major. But at the same time, the training in economics and business/finance are quite different and this difference has implications on initial placement when a university offers both economics and business/finance.
Suppose you cannot abide the idea of having your kiddo downgrade her education by spending her undergraduate years studying for a BBA degree. Yet, the BBAs remain much more employable (see post #34 above) than most liberal arts graduates. What to do? I think signalling programs like this one http://bridge.tuck.dartmouth.edu/ are going to become a lot more common.
Here are some job surveys that Penn published. It is true that Penn doesn’t assign jobs by major and any graduate from Penn can access and apply for Wharton School job postings. Some College grads do get employed by investment banks but in different functions, mostly in Sales and Trading where finance/business knowledge are not as important and can be trained while on the job. Most Wharton grads are put in IBD dept where a different skill set is needed.
This explains why I disagree that undergrad Wharton’s courses and curriculum are similar to most business majors. Take a look at their requirements that I posted earlier and it is apparent why their graduates are so desirable.
It can only be done in 4 years if one manages to squeeze in 150 credit hours worth of courses in a manner sufficient to fulfill prereqs.
Something which is doable if one double majors and/or does major overloads which wouldn’t be recommended or sometimes even allowed for all but the strongest/most motivated students*.
There’s also the factor that some colleges charge extra fees to overloads on courses beyond 15-16 credit hours so the student concerned may actually not be saving much/any money…especially if on FA/scholarship.
In many cases, the 150 hour rule means even accounting majors must take a 1 year accounting Masters course to fulfill that prereq to sit the CPA exam.
And no, none of the friends I mentioned needed 2 years worth of courses after their bachelors to fulfill the core requirements for the CPA exam. A 1 year accounting Masters was all that was needed in their cases to fulfill the prereqs, sit the CPA exam, and become certified accountants.
The academic deans who must approve overloads tend to discourage overloading unless the student has demonstrated s/he can handle it.
@cobrat Yes. Your right. I should clarify. Many CPA boards require 24 to 30 credits of typical undergrad business classes such as Accounting, business law, taxes, etc. they then require an additional 10 courses at the grad level (which you point out). So yes a typical CPA candidate will need a five year program. A non business major would still need the 24-30 credits which is equivalent to 2 years and then those 10 business courses at the grad level. So in reality it would be the 4+2+1 = 7 years as opposed to the 5 years for a business major.
And I know for a fact other states have similar policies in this regard.
I know no one who took 7 years worth of full-time study from undergrad to accounting Masters to complete the 150 credit hour prereq…including those who weren’t undergrad accounting majors. Possibly if they were doing the Masters and/or undergrad part-time.
Even for the one non-accounting undergrad major friend who did it part-time never took that long…