<p>I'm w/ garland; I can't stand the sweeping generalizations or constant comparisons where the CTCL schs outshine the elite shcs (though Pope often cites the number of CTCL grads in elite grad prgms or teaching at elite schs as evid CTCL success).</p>
<p>I haven't read CTCL, so I may be off-base. However, I believe Pope is trying to sell colleges that provide:</p>
<p>a) a strong degree of academic engagement
b) good admissions "values"</p>
<p>In a way, he's like the traffic reporter who sees a massive tie-up on the inbound expressway (the hoity-toit schools) and suggests smaller, alternative roots around the bottleneck.</p>
<p>Given this aspect to his recommendations, he almost has to cull schools that have admissions rates too low to be considered "values" for his target audience. Otherwise, he'd be including schools like Swarthmore that epitomize his "academic" criteria, but offer crappy admissions "value" because the road to an acceptance letter is bumper-to-bumper.</p>
<p>I like his approach. Honestly, does the world need another guidebook touting the same three dozen or so schools on the USNEWS hit parade? People already know about those schools.</p>
<p>I think Pope consistently points to some very attractive schools.</p>
<p>Well, this is interesting. The subtitle of the new revised edition is, "Forty schools that will change the way you think about college." That is fine and dandy, but different from the earlier edition which was, "40 Schools you should know about even if you're not a straight-A student." For us (and many others) the really important message of the book was that there are some very good schools out there that are not highly selective. It provides a viable alternative to community college or even not going to college at all to many students who didn't even realize these options existed.</p>
<p>I totally agree with interesteddad. We had never heard of the book, but my son accidentally ended up at one of the schools in there, and I am pleased to report that it is everything Pope promised and more. (I actually just bought a copy for son #2's girlfriend.) We truly feel like we found a hidden (and affordable) gem. I feel fortunate every time we are on that campus and every time I hear about my son's academic adventures.</p>
<p>Now I wish there was a similar book for technical schools! I mean, how do you assess whether that linear propulsion thingee, or nuclear thing-a-ma-bob really impacts my kid's education and overall personal growth???</p>
<p>I agree with almost everyone on the thread -- he has done a valuable service by guiding students to less famous colleges where they may have fabulous experiences. But along the way, he counters generalizations and one-size-fits-all ideas with more generalizations and more one-size-fits-all ideas that happen to go in the other direction. Read him to learn about the schools he likes; don't read him for the Gospel truth about what kind of school is best for every kid.</p>
<p>I think that Pope's book is overhyped. I'm thrilled that it has worked for several people/families here and elsewhere, but I read it and all I thought of it was that Pope is a grumpy old man who is way overly idelistic and who champions those 40 colleges over the big bad nasty elites to the point of sheer ridiculousness. I have nothing against the colleges that Pope highlights--they are certainly fine schools where a student could get a great education. But (and I am sure this will get me into trouble, but it is what I believe) when people champion schools that just aren't on the academic level as the elites (I'm talking about the less selective of the 40 schools that he chooses--some of them are closer than others), I find it hard to listen to their advice. I don't have any problem with saying and believing that you could go to any of the colleges that he highlights and be successful. But I just don't think that the New College of Florida (just picking one that I saw mentioned--not trying to dump on the school!!) is on the same academic level as Harvard. I'm not buying it, but that is what he (IMO) is trying to sell.</p>
<p>^^ You know what though? For many fairly bright, well adjusted kids, they might actually get a better education at New College of Florida than Harvard. I think that is his point though; that the "elites" may not service everyone equally well, that a smaller, less competitive school might be better for many kids.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The CTCL program by contrast, was much smaller, and lower key
[/quote]
Unfortunately, at least in the SF Bay area -- that has changed -- there was a huge crowd at the event I attended with my daughter in the summer of 2005. It still was a nice program and I'm glad I dragged my daughter to it... but it certainly no longer offers much opportunity for intimate discussions with college admission reps.
[quote]
The subtitle of the new revised edition is, "Forty schools that will change the way you think about college." That is fine and dandy, but different from the earlier edition which was, "40 Schools you should know about even if you're not a straight-A student."
[/quote]
That's interesting -- and I too am sorry to see so many of the 40 becoming elusive targets. But the book was probably the most important thing my son, who was an A student and National Merit finalist, read when he began his college search, precisely because it changed the way we thought about college. Together with a reading of Hernandez' "A is for Admissions", my son came to the conclusion that he did not want to attend a college with admission policies that would screen out some of the most interesting people. In the end he was not interested in most of the 40 schools listed, but he developed a college list of LAC's which had many attributes in common with those schools. So he went beyond Pope's list, but with Pope's ideals in mind.</p>
<p>weenie, I understand the point of Pope's book(s) and his suggestions. I just think that he goes so way way overboard--he falls into a trap, for lack of a better term, that many people fall into. It's the "Who needs Harvard/trophy school X)?" syndrome. The POINT that he and others are trying to make is that there are plenty of colleges at which one can receive a good education. I have no problem with that. In my opinon, though the tone of his books is such that he seems to state that the elites are no good for anyone. Because the elites are overrated (and they are--no arguments here), he goes over the top trying to take them down a peg or five, and ends up sounding ridiculous to me. </p>
<p>Hanna's post reminded me of another part of Pope's book that cheesed me off--he seems/seemed wedded to the idea of a small, semi-rural/small town/relatively isolated school. He strongly implies, if not outright states (I only read the book once a couple of years ago, so I don't want to make any super-definitive statements) that small and isolated schools are the only way to go and will work for everybody. I can think of quite a few people (myself included) who would just plain go nuts at an isolated and/or tiny school. He also advocates what seems to me to be schools with a strong sense of "family" (hand-holdy and overbearing to me, but not to everyone, I understand), probably because of their superior advising/support systems. But again, these type of schools aren't right for everyone (again...I would go nuts at a school like this), but he strongly implies that a college can't be any good if it isn't like this. </p>
<p>I just found his book to have such a vindictive tone...it annoys me that it has become the bible of college advice books. Again, I'm happy that it has worked for people and I acknowledge that in general, Pope has a point, but I just hate that book, to be frank--I'm soooo sick of hearing about how great it is. There are other, less heavy-handed books that give much better advice, in my opinion. </p>
<p>The only thing that I don't hate about Pope is that he lives in a Frank Lloyd Wright house. My father is an architect, and you could be sure that we would be more than happy to have our own FLW creation! :) (Sidenote: my father has actually done jobs at several of the current and former CLTCL's--Grinnell and Beloit, off the top of my head--and they are respected names in our house (especially Grinnell...he really wanted me to apply there. Sorry Daddy, just too small and isolated! But the Noyce Science Center--that's my father's work!)).</p>
<p>Yes, advantagious, I agree, my only criteria when I was applying to college was that they be in big cities. I did the same thing for grad school.</p>
<p>I agree with all of the differeing opinions being expressed. </p>
<p>I think the CTCL book is at times cloyingly over the top in terms of cheerleading for the included schools. They're all terrific places but no school is 100% perfect, and it would be nice to have a little more balanced review to remind readers of that. And, yes, I could see how some might feel he is only attacking certain schools and not others, or suggesting that the most competitive schools are somehow automatically inferior.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I think the value of Pope's message lies not in which schools are included, or how how he feels about the Ivy League (or what type of house he once lived in years ago), but the underlying suggestion that is actually exactly pretty darn close to what you are saying Advantagious: Students should figure out what the heck they, as individuals want and need from their education, and then look for schools that match those criteria, instead of automatically marching lock-step after ANY school just because someone else says it is the best choice. </p>
<p>That's true whether they find the match at an Ivy school, a CTCL school, the public university down the street, or some other school no one on CC has yet heard about.</p>
<p>No college in the world is right for every student, including the ones Pope lauds in his book, but students who take the time to approach the process in a thoughtful way that relies less on what everyone else says and more on the criteria that match them as individuals will almost always end up finding that their college experience HAS changed their life.</p>
<p>advantagious, I agree with your comments. Some of Pope's negative comments about schools are flat out untrue. Some of his positive comments about schools are exaggerated.</p>
<p>His schools are too small and usually too isolated for me.</p>
<p>"But the Noyce Science Center--that's my father's work!))."</p>
<p>What I really wanted to say was, very sweet.</p>
<p>^^Have you seen it? Pretty spiffy, huh? My father does interiors--obviously, multiple people work on a building, but he is heavily involved in the designing and that was a big one that lead to a long-term affinity on his part for Grinnell. His specialty is laboratory planning, and right now he's working on buildings at Beloit and St. Olaf (just got back from Northfield, actually). </p>
<p>Anyway, sorry to go off on a tangent! Back on topic, I'm happy that I'm not totally out in left field on Pope. I think he really makes me upset because I actually DO think that he has a good message, but it is buried under so much sheer personal opinion that I find him exceedingly hard to stomach. That book is a huge deal though--again, my father talks to college professors/students/presidents all the time, and believe me, a place like Beloit is thrilled to get that exposure. I guess that's a good thing...too bad I find Pope so unbearable!</p>
<p>I have seen photos. It's going to be a beautiful place. It's not done yet, right?</p>
<p>I feel good for the schools that get some exposure, too. Carolyn mentioned positives that come out of Pope's work.</p>
<p>It bothers me whenever somebody is factually inaccurate when they are trying to make a point. It definitely makes me wonder about the stuff I don't know about that the writer says.</p>
<p>Pope's basic "one size does not fit all" message is an important one- and so is the fact he has dedicated his efforts to finding small, truly hidden gems - a welcome change from so many college search articles (in otherwise extremely helpful college resource guides) such as Kaplan-Newsweek, in which, year after year from 1988-2006, the same colleges are listed under the hidden gem rubric which, of course, then becomes a status symbol in itself. Over-the-top or not, CTCL has changed the way students and parents conduct their college search - whether or not they have even read Pope's books. As advantagious wrote "The POINT that he and others are trying to make is that there are plenty of colleges at which one can receive a good education." Many of the colleges Pope promotes would be off many folks' radar. I wonder, at age 96, how he copes with having become - well, there is no other way to say it - conventional.</p>
<p>For Pope:
[quote]
“A good school is an extended family,” he said. “The learning is collaborative, not competitive. It’s a community of learning, and values are central — that’s important.”
[/quote]
</p>
<p>and this, of course, as other posters have pointed out is not always a function of size.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For Pope:
Quote:
“A good school is an extended family,” he said. “The learning is collaborative, not competitive. It’s a community of learning, and values are central — that’s important.”
and this, of course, as other posters have pointed out is not always a function of size.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, indeed. This semester, my S is taking three classes for which he is in study groups as well as sections. His fourth class has four students, each pursuing an independent study project on a common theme.</p>
<p>Advantagious - I've been in the Noyce science center, love the 'public' interiors and was in a very neat classroom, too. My compliments to the designer.</p>
<p>On Pope, let's not forget to read the title (something I often do): Colleges that Change Lives. Perhaps F and M, Grinnell and Bard were dropped from the list because colleges that become selective are taking students who have other avenues to succeed - their lives are not going to be changed by attendance at those selective colleges because they've already matured/figured out how to succeed academically/gotten "it". Pope includes colleges that take students with potential but not as much demonstrated academic success. </p>
<p>I'm sure the book is successful, too, because it stands apart from the avalanche of books telling how kids can get into the Ivy league, how to improve an essay, etc. etc. Read through all THOSE books and you're left with "it's a crap shoot"; books like Pope's offer some hope. (He's given me some hope that a person can find new direction in his mid-50's).</p>
<p>^I totally agree with the last thing you said! :)</p>
<p>Please understand that my remarks above were a comment on his quotes in the interview, which is what was first posted. I haven't read his books, and I would not presume to comment on them. It was the way he spoke about whole groups of students and schools in such a seemingly cavalier dismissal in the interview that I was responding to.</p>
<p>I'm sure he's more welcoming and inclusive in his books.</p>
<p>I singled out the comments on the three above schools because, coupled with his assertion that B students are more interesting people than A students, this seems to add up to a conclusion that those schools are now inferior, having more A students.</p>
<p>Again, that reaction is confined to what he said in the interview, not his books (which i have suggested to people whom I thought might be interested in them, based on what i have read here on CC.)</p>
<p>I am fairly certain that the reason that F&M, Bard, and Grinnell were deleted was because they had become relatively well known by GC's, students and parents as excellent colleges and as a result their admissions standards had increased significantly.</p>
<p>The purpose of the Pope books is to find those colleges which provide excellent academics AND admit large numbers of students with less than "perfect" hs academic records. The F&M's of the world had moved beyoun the latter criterion in Pope's estimation and I am sure he would be the first to acknowledge that the academic quality of these 'rejects" are as good as ever.</p>
<p>People here may choose to disparage Mr Pope because their children are among the rare few who have suberb hs resumes and whose choices are limitless. However most students do not have such choices and the Pope recommendations can be of immense value.</p>
<p>How do you see disparagement in objecting to the tenor of some quotes in an interview?</p>
<p>Isn't that what discussion is supposed to be about? Or should everyone just smile and nod.</p>