<p>I simply gave this book to my son's friend because I thought she needed a different perspective in her college search. She was frustrated by the whole process so far (she's only a junior) and had looked at a few schools - all random choices (they happened to be somewhere she was on vacation). I told her that I don't advocate specifically for any of the schools - as I have no idea what she wants out of her college experience - I simply feel it is a nice alternative to a market flooded with "Top 10" garbage.</p>
<p>I've read Pope's books and came away with mixed feelings. On one hand, he provides a valuable service in providing the names of smaller LACs with reasonable admissions standards and educational focus on undergrads. On the other hand, his book is not all things to all people. Many are looking at colleges with a broader perspective and additional criteria in mind. </p>
<p>The books seem especially aimed at students who are interested in pursuing PhDs, - the schools in question no doubt provide the motivated student the ability to be a big fish in a small pond and take advantage of mentoring opportunities and more. </p>
<p>Where I do agree with Pope is in terms of his belief in the value of a liberal arts education, even (especially) for those eventually going into the professions, when there is time enough later to specialize, and also for those who do not yet know what they would like to do as a career.</p>
<p>I still have a hard time w/ Pope's tone (everything elite is bad) and his cookie-cutter approach (small/rural is best). Garland's excerpts from the Pope interview are consist w/ the text of Pope's books.</p>
<p>Also a a black parent, I was troubled by Pope's dismissal of diversity (other than LD) in his books - - and racial diversity is one area in which the elite schs are definite leaders.</p>
<p>@NYC:</p>
<p>If CTCL schools are lacking diversity, I would think that minority students would add diversity by attending these schools.</p>
<p>my daughters private schools had the same problem-
We are a fairly white city ( 73% Caucasian- although the school district is only 44% Caucasian)- the schools she attended K-12, had very generous need based aid scholarships- and the racial balance did reflect the city, but not the same mix of the school district.
It was difficult to attract more minorities, because when they would tour the school, they would see not a lot of racial diversity- hard to attract more, when you don't have much to begin with.
Lakeside has a 40 yr program in place designed to attract minorities with a specially designed summer program- but not all schools have the resources & history of Lakeside.
Ivies are able to have more programs as well, because of financial resources and history.
Many minority students also attend HBCUs. While several of the students I talk to and advise are looking at all kinds of schools, attending an HBCU, is an experience quite different from their K-12 education that they want to try.</p>
<p>Most resources like Popes, you do have to take whats useful and leave the rest. His isn't the only one that reuses quotes, and perhaps he verges into hyperbole a little too much re LACs, but since most resources all but ignore smaller schools, and discuss the same 50 schools, that we aren't looking at anyway- I am grateful for his distinct perspective.</p>
<p>I agree with you EK. To me it's just a different viewpoint. It's not religion.</p>
<p>nyc:
[quote]
and racial diversity is one area in which the elite schs are definite leaders
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I wonder if data back that up?</p>
<p>Frankie - That's true (if unenlightened,) but if diversity is a consideration, why attend a sch where one would they feel more comfortable socially? Also, I can't speak for all URSs ("minorities"), but my Ds have no burning desire to enhance someone else's experience by increasing diversity (and might I add - - not on my dime). Like most students my Ds are seeking a sch that is a good fit academically and socially.</p>
<p>I was merely pointing out (as I have to URM families) that this is a Pope shortcoming - - and that the elite schs often offer more racial diversity (easily verified on sch web sites or on Princeton Rev or similar guide site).</p>
<p>Why drop Grinnell and not Reed? According to the PR's numbers, Reed is more selective than either and its students has similar or better numbers?</p>
<p>
[quote]
...but my Ds have no burning desire to enhance someone else's experience by increasing diversity (and might I add - - not on my dime).
[/quote]
This is a very honest, but loaded, statement. A white family could not get away with that attitude. Particularly the "not on my dime" sentiment.</p>
<p>Reed still is willing to take chances on students with less than perfect records. I am fairly sure that is why it made the new edition and not Grinnell.</p>
<p>As for diversity, be careful of sweeping statements such as "the elites are more diverse." It doesn't always hold true. While larger schools in general will tend to have greater raw numbers of minority students because they have more students in general than most LACs (CTCL or otherwise) none of the elites actually have huge percentages of minority students (or, for that matter, much economic diversity). If diversity is going to be used as primary factor in determining quality, then many public universities have the "elites" beat by a mile. I'll gather some numbers and post them for comparison sake just so we are talking in terms of facts, not generalities.</p>
<p>I'm not sure how White families increase racial diversity or why a White family would be prompted to make such a statement regarding a predom White sch.</p>
<p>Carolyn - I wasn't speaking exclusively of Ivies (HYPD), which tend to be larger in terms of both absolute # and %, but of elite LACs (Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan, Oberlin, Swath, Smith) which are close in size but more diverse than CTCL schools (Wooster and Earlham being the most notable exceptions). Admittedly, the numbers aren't great at the elites, but a campus w/ 1-3% black students "feels" very diff than a campus where 6-10% of the students are black.</p>
<p>NYC, I totally agree with you, especially if it's a school located in an area where few blacks reside, like many of the CTCL schools are -- obviously, it is going to be a tougher choice for a black student from the Northeast to head to Northfield, Minnesota than it would be to head for Northhampton, Mass. :)</p>
<p>Another side of the coin is economic diversity -- if you're a low income kid, regardless of race, you might feel more comfortable at a school where there are more people "like" you. As I recall, many of the CTCL do quite well in that regard, and, in fact, may come close to beating out some of the schools you mention.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I'm running seriously behind today so I don't have time to crunch the numbers, but it would be interesting if someone could pull this information so we're working with some facts.</p>
<p>Nyc: White families are constantly told that minorities need to be exposed to them, to their schools, to their world, in order to succeed. And then the wealthier among them are expected to pay full frieght while scholarships for minority kids are offered. </p>
<p>Do minorities need to rub elbows with whites to succeed? It's such an ingrained construct that it can't even be rationally discussed. If a white college kid isn't actively seeking out racial diversity in his school choices, he is looked at as a closet racist. He's not allowed to declare a school to be an academic & social fit unless it has a high minority percentage.</p>
<p>"Do minorities need to rub elbows with whites to succeed? It's such an ingrained construct that it can't even be rationally discussed. If a white college kid isn't actively seeking out racial diversity in his school choices, he is looked at as a closet racist."</p>
<p>I think that you are conflating arguments about what's good for white kids with arguments about what's good for black kids.</p>
<p>It is absolutely open to debate, and presently hotly debated, whether minority kids benefit from attending predominately white universities or whether more of them would benefit from attending HBCU's.</p>
<p>That's a different question from the issue of whether white kids benefit from going to school with minority kids, which (as you said) is largely taken for granted.</p>
<p>I'm wondering why we are even talking about racial diversity in the context of CTCL. </p>
<p>For one thing, without a fair amount of research, it is difficult to know all the economic factors that play into the various scholarship offers made by all the schools, and, hence, the make up of their student body. For instance, perhaps (I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect it based on the high schools they come from) the so-called elites have overall wealthier kids and can therefore spend more money attracting a "diverse" student body. Additionally, perhaps the CTCL use their money to attract high-stat kids, skewing their student body. Unfortunately, there are only so many high stat URM kids to go around - why wouldn't they attend the "elites?"</p>
<p>Anyway, as has been discussed numerous times on CC, there is a big difference between what appears to be diversity if you simply look at race or ethnic background, or if you dig a tad deeper and look at economic diversity.</p>
<p>Aside from all that, the reason I question even talking about race in the context of CTCL is the fact that it's not the point of the book! I think he is targeting kids within an overall picture - certain stats and educational goals. These are not necessarily the same kids that can A) afford to go to a so-called elite B) can get into the so-called elites or C) want to go to the so-called elites. That is the point of the book - giving these kids good options. Anything else is sort of picking IMO.</p>
<p>I was never a fan of the CTCL schools. For my 2 Brooklyn born kids, I found most of the offerings way too small and too rural. But for those who may want to expand on the idea of a small knit community where the focus is on teaching, I suggest you also check out the schools listed on this website- <a href="http://www.collegesofdistinction.com%5B/url%5D">www.collegesofdistinction.com</a><br>
I believe some of Pope's schools are also listed on the site- but it also has a much broader range of environments including some urban schools like Fordham or Wagner college on Staten Island.</p>
<p>Although we are getting a little off-message here I need to chime in on this diversity "thing". Numbers do not necessarily tell the story. If a university like Columbia student body includes 15% AA's and 8% HA's and the majority of them were raised in communities like Beverly Hills, Lake Forest and Scarsdale how much diversity do they bring to the college compared by a white miner's kid reared in Montcoal, WVa near where my grandam was raised. Her's was a lumber family.</p>
<p>I do not have any specific fact or figures to toss out, but having spent time on many college campuses, it seems evident to me that socio-economic diversity has more impact on providing a wide range of life experiences than does race alone.</p>
<p>I would have to agree Oriloog
Our daughter- coming from a low middlish income, blue collar family, with Lds with parents who never attended a 4 year college, and whose extended family wasn't supportive of her attending one, even though visually, she didn't add "diversity" in glossy brochures, she does add a different perspective to schools where the current generation of students, had parents and grandparents that attended college, some even professors at comparable schools.</p>
<p>That is one thing that I find frustrating at times, in the current city schools. While I recognize that race as a criteria is very different than economic, although they can go hand in hand, I can empathize with those who see lots of special programs for low income/minority students. Some only require minority status, including Asian.</p>
<p>When your family, like mine does, works very hard, so that we * aren't* low income, and admittedly are not minority ( although technically Caucasians only make up 43% in the school district), but there is a gap, ( it feels like a big gap) between being able to afford to pay for special programs, like tutoring and academic enrichment and qualifying for no fee/fee programs.</p>
<p>Especially when the students( Caucasian) who remain in our district, are often attracted to the "gifted programs", there is an even wider gap, between minority performance and white students scores. Which means that there is even more emphasis on special programs for minorities- and more assumption that "white" students are thriving.
( which as a group- they are- but when its your kid, that is struggling- its small consolation)</p>
<p>Anyway- I do wish there was more diversity in colleges.
My daughter for example would love to attend Occidental, and one reason is because of the diversity. She attends an inner city school, and at least half her friends are minority- it would feel strange to her, I think to attend a school that was say, in rural Ohio, and mostly white.</p>
<p>I know that more students are capable of attending college, and may do better in a small college, that they currently know nothing about, than a big state school that their parents are familiar with.</p>
<p>While I admit Popes books have their faults, and his bias is pretty obvious, I could also say that about Thomas Sowell, whose college guide I also enjoyed, even though his bias is just as strong. Once you know their perspective, it gives you a comparison. Its when you think the guide is neutral and it isn't , that it is harder to sort out what is useful.</p>
<p>Some of the guides, while not always highly rated, like the Yale and Princeton guides, I have found to be very helpful, because my impressions of the schools that I was familiar with, were similar to theirs, so I assumed that the rest of the information would be equally as accurate.</p>
<p>But while the net has opened up a world of information, I still have a very soft place for Popes guides ( we had both of them & three versions of CTCL)
I knew that the Ivies, were out, just because they felt way over our heads, huge state schools also didn't feel right, but I had no idea what else there was until I read his books.</p>
<p>While I realized that no school could be as idyllic a place as he made out, it helped us to think about, what would be the best fit, rather than what name would be more recognizable or impressive.</p>
<p>I don't know if parents who come from college backgrounds, really realize how easy it is to feel intimidated by the process. Guides like Popes, that seem more managable in the small selection of schools to discuss, and emphasize schools that will give a close look to applicants, not just test scores and GPA, are a welcome respite to trying to find a place where your child can thrive.</p>
<p>Cool Colleges</p>
<p>I also really liked this book- published after D was already attending college- but by a Reedie ;)</p>
<p>I agree w/ Carolyn, EK and others regarding the signif of socio-econ diversity. But I have seen little evid (as Carolyn suggests) that students feel more comfortable w/ those from similar socio-econ bkg, regardless of race. This was certainly NOT my experience, nor that of my college classmates, nor of D1-3. Indeed, what have observed at boarding schs and college over the past 5 yrs is that, until they are present in large enough numbers to differentiate, black students stick together. </p>
<p>(FYI, many schs still assign roommates w/ race a primary, if not determinative, factor. D1's frosh roommate was poor, ABC student from a family none of whose members had ever attended college. Both, however, were urban and black - - and they have remained best friends.)</p>
<p>FWIW, some of the elite LACs do ok w/ econ diversity (Smith, for example). And if you throw in LGBT students, the liberal elites probably “win” hands-down.</p>
<p>So, I stand by my orig stmt that the elite schs have larger URM populations than the CTCL schs. Certainly some of this is $$ and some of it is geography. But there are a surprising number of schs w/in striking distance of NYC, Phili, Newark and Camden that are being out-paced by Grinnell in IA (5% black students) and yes, even Carleton in Northfield, MN (6%) - - though Grinnell and Carleton are no longer upstarts or “hidden gems.”</p>
<p>And Weenie - - why focus on the limited pool of high-stats black kids. Isn’t the whole point of CTCL that these are good choices for kids w/ lesser stats. And while race isn’t the point of the book, neither are athletics, gender parity (remember the apology from the Kenyon Dir of Admis), geog diversity or Greek life, all of which are discussed in any college directory, including CTCL. My point was to voice my opinion, that in recommending schs, CTCL gives short-shrift to some important concerns in favor of size and isolation.</p>
<p>Original - I don’t think that at any college the majority of URM students (so that’s excluding Asian students) are from wealthy families. At every college I visited w/ D1, black and Latino students were more likely from modest Brooklyn/Bronx families than Scarsdale, Larchmont or Newton. And often the first in their families to attend college (even if more affluent).</p>
<p>I'm just saying CTCL is limited/flawed and overlooked factors that were important to my family.</p>
<p>marny1 wrote:</p>
<p>"I was never a fan of the CTCL schools. For my 2 Brooklyn born kids, I found most of the offerings way too small and too rural. But for those who may want to expand on the idea of a small knit community where the focus is on teaching, I suggest you also check out the schools listed on this website- <a href="http://www.collegesofdistinction.com">www.collegesofdistinction.com</a>" </p>
<p>I believe the colleges of distinction pay to participate in that site...it is just another marketing channel.</p>
<p>CTCL, along with "The Gatekeepers" broadened our families thinking about colleges. Both proved invaluable, and my D will be attending one of the CTCL schools. The real value in CTCL is the thought process, not the particular schools that are mentioned. I think the value is greatest for families that are the first generation to consider anything other than the local college.</p>