<p>There is AP, and then there is AP. 30+ years ago I took my first AP courses as a junior: APUSH and AP Chem. I had, oh, perhaps 8-10 textbooks for APUSH, actual college texts (e.g. Hofstadter), not some sort of AP-specific textbook. For chem, we had 4 or 5 different college texts, and two additional hours of lab time per week. Studying for APs, there were no study guides. You studied from your notes. Those classes were as challenging (for intro classes, that is) as any courses that I took as an undergrad at Berkeley. They were presented as college-level classes, taught as if they were college-level classes. They required a significant amount of study time. </p>
<p>Some APs may still be taught this way. From what I’ve seen, most aren’t. Which is why bright students can now take six of them + do ECs and work part time and get a good night’s sleep.</p>
<p>It wasn’t open enrollment. There might have been twice as many students who wanted to take APUSH as were admitted. The AP Chem teacher had such a reputation as a hard posterior that most students–even many very bright ones who were planning on being science majors in college–were scared away, so that one was “open enrollment”. </p>
<p>OK, done with the “dang kids these days” rant. :)</p>
<p>And in which category would you have placed my daughter, who was planning to major in economics in college? Economics is social studies, of course, but it also has a strong math component. Shouldn’t a student like her have the opportunity to take AP Microeconomics, AP Macroeconomics, and AP BC Calculus? (Not to mention anything else she wanted to take and could fit into her schedule.) </p>
<p>People don’t necessarily sort themselves easily into two categories. And for some students, 2 APs is nowhere near enough (unless other, equally rigorous non-AP courses are available).</p>
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<p>The colleges have adapted quite nicely, although different colleges have done it in different ways.</p>
<p>Highly selective tech-oriented schools like MIT, Caltech, and Harvey Mudd do have substantial humanities and social studies requirements, so students aiming for them should take rigorous courses in those subjects in high school to prepare for them in college.</p>
<p>Indeed, students aiming for any schools with substantial breadth requirements should be prepared for college course work in various types of subjects.</p>
<p>@californiaa, I don’t think the college board expected APs to be something kids would cram for in a few days with test prep books without even taking the class. I never heard of such a thing when I was in high school. Admissions always talk about how they want to see commitment and passion. I don’t think they would define that as coming on here to ask what the easiest APs to self study are, then running out and getting a test prep book and cramming, all to get a score to show the adcoms. I’d like to think they are looking for kids with true intellectual interests rather than those who are just trying to impress with test scores. I do know that some of the adcoms make fun of kids who take the SAT too many times. Whether they feel the same about transparent attempts to pad the AP resume is only my guess.</p>
<p>“I had, oh, perhaps 8-10 textbooks for APUSH, actual college texts (e.g. Hofstadter)” I’m pretty sure my daughter also used Hofstadter in her APUSH class.</p>
<p>“High School curriculums should teach high school level courses. Period.” Ok, well my daughter completed high school math in 8th grade. So, you think she should have just dropped out of math until college because some high school students find calculus to be too hard in high school? Well, <em>my</em> child wasn’t good enough to make varsity in her favorite sports so maybe we should just ban varsity sports because all students cannot handle it!</p>
<p>“If they have to offer AP classes, then they should be offered to students in their area of strength or interest only. So math/science students would be eligible to take 2 in those areas and english/history/language types could take 2 in their areas.” Really. And how would you determine what a student’s area of strength or interest is? My daughter identifies herself as the math/science type. But she also loves history. And languages. Would it surprise you if I told you her APUSH teacher used to exclude her grade from the class curve because he didn’t feel it was fair to the other students? And that she’s also one of the top English students? Oh, and she kind of skipped a year of language because she wanted more of a challenge–the AP teacher was a little skeptical when she jumped into his class without the prereq, but she proved herself pretty quickly…so, tell me, which AP classes exactly would you permit her to take? </p>
<p>If you have never parented a child like this you simply have no idea what you are talking about.</p>
<p>Back when I was in high school, the AP tests that were the common “easy to self study” ones (human geography, psychology, statistics, environmental science, etc.) did not exist.</p>
<p>AP classes are preparing top students to compete with top students globally. </p>
<p>One issue that I do see is students who are taking too many AP classes. Some students, often encouraged by parents, are taking 15 AP courses in high school, primarily trying to impress colleges. I would like to see more colleges make statements like UNC did about the maximum number they care about. I would be surprised if any college would care about more than 8 APs (even at the MIT/Harvard level). What colleges do care about is which subjects the student takes and the scores the student received on the AP exams. </p>
<p>A student planning to take 15 AP exams should consider cutting their course load down to 6-8 APs in the most challenging and important subjects, such as B/C Calculus and Physics C, English Language and Composition, English Literature and Composition. Then focus on excelling in those classes and getting strong scores on the AP exams and adding extracurriculars in subjects that they are interested in. I think that approach would be more impressive to colleges and the student would enjoy their high school experience more.</p>
<p>“Some students, often encouraged by parents, are taking 15 AP courses in high school, primarily trying to impress colleges.” And some students, on their own initiative, are taking 15 AP courses in high school, primarily because they are actually interested in the subjects and in some cases because they have spent their lives in mind-numbingly boring classes which weren’t the least bit challenging to them, and they will do anything–even study subjects they aren’t particularly fond of at a more advanced level–to avoid returning to the intellectual prison.</p>
<p>@MuchtoLearn, I actually did what you suggest in high school. I opted to take a regular class instead of an AP class. I figured I didn’t like the subject too much and I didn’t want to spend a lot of time on it. I still regret that choice, to this day. The regular class was pure torture. I slept through most of it with my head on my desk. When I was awake, I would flip through the awful textbook we had and correct the typos in it. What a waste. The following year, I hopped into the next AP in that subject and had a much better experience, despite having to actually work. </p>
<p>I, personally, don’t think AP classes and the number of students taking them is a good measure of a high school’s quality. In addition, I think it leads to high schools pushing kids to take AP classes who aren’t necessarily ready for them. That is problematic for the students in the AP class who are ready for the advanced work and discourages the students who were pushed into the AP class from taking any further AP classes. I have one D who took one AP class (world history) as a sophomore and the amount of work was overwhelming. She never took any other AP classes and is set to graduate from a state university in June. So . . . you can be successful in college having only taken one AP class in high school. </p>
<p>My younger D, however, took 9 AP classes. After taking world history as a sophomore she was overwhelmed with the amount of work and decided to take regular US history her junior year. The line between AP and regular classes is actually a cliff and after three days of worksheets and movies in regular US history, she switched herself into AP US history and loved the class. Any students who want to be challenged at all are forced to take honors and AP classes or be very selective regarding their teachers. Otherwise, they will be bored to tears in the regular classes.</p>
<p>" I would like to see more colleges make statements like UNC did about the maximum number they care about. I would be surprised if any college would care about more than 8 APs (even at the MIT/Harvard level)."</p>
<p>I suspect they don’t care very much beyond a certain point. But if they don’t care at all, then why haven’t other colleges followed UNC’s lead? </p>
<p>Mathyone, upon reflection I suppose my view on AP’s is rather skewed. I am actually parenting such a child but our approach has been to enroll her in a competitive boarding school thats offers a broad, deep and rigorous curriculum. This is obviously a path that some would not choose to take. They do have honors classes, but no longer offer the branded “AP” classes. Many students choose to sit for the exams in June if in an honors class, some choose not to do so. The school’s matriculation rate to top colleges is pretty impressive, so she doesn’t feel she is being compromised by not taking 8 to 10 AP tests. </p>
<p>My real issue with the AP system is that is seems to have become a “race” adding additional stress to a generation that already has little leisure time. And perhaps I hold that view because of the extremely competitive and rigorous environments my children have been in since elementary school. If my children were bored in classes, then yes, that would be a concern for me as well. And perhaps as many posters have noted, the AP system does in fact address that for a lot of students. But for some students already in extremely competitive environments, it can be stressful to add 4 or 5 AP exams junior year to final exams, SAT’s and SAT II’s. Perhaps for some students that is a “walk in the park”, but I would rather my children actually take the “walk in the park.” But I fully accept that different children have different tolerance for stress.</p>
<p>My child is advanced in math as well. Once calculus was completed she did sit for the AP exam. But after that she looked to regular courses in areas such as statistics, programming or an independent study relating to math. Not necessarily courses that she would get additional college credit for, but that would broaden her knowledge base in that discipline. (She took that same approach for science which is also a strength). She used any additional room in her schedule to explore disciplines that she had little time for during her early high school career. Notably some courses in the arts which she actually enjoyed immensely. She also completed her requirements for language, but the school offers additional courses in language that involve reading novels/poetry or studying the culture/history of that country. These are not courses that she took for college credit, but to provide a deeper and broader understanding of the language and culture. But this is what has worked for our particular family, and I can see that we are clearly taking “the road less traveled” when compared to other CC posters. </p>
<p>Further, we do look ahead in an attempt to factor in what the possible benefits of so many AP courses might be. How colleges treat AP credits seems to be all over the board. It appears some of the top universities are limiting their use. I believe Dartmouth has announced that they will no longer allow students to earn college credits through AP courses, saying “they want a Dartmouth education to take place at Dartmouth”. Although that will start with the incoming class of 2018. Several departments at Columbia no longer accept AP credits and Brown will not apply them to the minimum number of credits require for graduation. But if my child attends a school that does give full credit, how advanced does she want to be in terms of course load? Right now she says she wants to attend grad school, so her GPA will be important. In her areas of strength/interest she feels it makes sense to test out of the intro courses. But if she is taking more advanced courses in her major areas of study, then she says she is inclined to lighten the load with the other core requirements. So she has decided on 3 - 4 AP tests. Granted, this approach might not be the best for a student who is less sure of their area of study, but I do believe it will provide more balance to her college experience.</p>
<p>But you do realize that academically elite high schools which offer courses of high rigor that are not AP courses are outliers compared to typical high schools where AP courses are the most rigorous offerings available, and where there can be a large drop-off in rigor in the regular “college prep” courses, right?</p>
<p>Also, at an academically elite high school, wouldn’t most or all courses be rigorous to the point that a full load of them would not be that much different in student workload and challenge (and therefore stressfulness) than a full load of AP courses at a typical high school? Or perhaps even higher workload and challenge (and therefore stressfulness)?</p>
<p>I suppose that most courses at a rigorous BS are the equivalent of AP courses at a typical high school. But I am not sure that the courses themselves are where the stress comes in. The piling on of 5 or 6 AP tests at the end of sophomore and junior year, at a time when finals are also administered, is an issue, at least for my child. Students also sit for PSAT, SAT and SAT ll’s during those years and GPA remains very important. Further, the perception is that AP tests are used only for college credit, but I think in reality for many top colleges, the AP scores achieved in Soph/Jr. years become a relevant part of the application. So the pressure for the 5 is there. </p>
<p>Her approach is to take fewer AP tests, achieve high grades on her finals to protect her GPA and hopefully get the 5 on the AP tests she does take. But this is a student who has expressed a preference to be cautious and conservative about the number of disciplines in which she tests out of introductory courses in college. I explained the thinking going into that decision in a previous post. So, she is taking the rigorous courses but not necessarily for college credit. The AP tests which she does sit for will be in the area of her major areas of interest.
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If you can find a high school curriculum that challenges you, I am not sure what all the “rush” and “acceleration” is for. She might encounter some overlap in some courses in college, but I do not necessarily see that as a bad thing.</p>
<p>For most colleges, there is no penalty to bring in AP credit, and one has the option to retake courses for which one has subject credit from AP scores. There are some exceptions*, though the ones that I know of are public universities, rather than elite private universities that students at academically elite high schools tend to aim for.</p>
<p>However, AP credit, when accepted for subject credit, is often most useful for peripheral requirements, rather than core major requirements. In some cases, a student with AP credit for a core major requirement may find, after reviewing the college’s old final exams for the course allowed to be skipped, that s/he may want to retake the course before taking more advanced courses. This is not a concern when the course allowed to be skipped is a peripheral requirement which is not a prerequisite to anything else the student will take.</p>
<ul>
<li>The exceptions that I know about:</li>
<li>UCI, UCSD, UCSB: not allowed to retake course for which one has AP subject credit for.</li>
<li>Texas public schools: AP credit units beyond 9(?) count toward credit units attempted for purposes of the tuition rebate if one graduates with the minimum possible credit units attempted.</li>
<li>Michigan: charges higher tuition for upper division students; upper division status is determined by credit units, including AP credit.</li>
</ul>
<p>Last I checked, PSAT is offered in the fall, so not sure that is relevant. And the Subject Tests dove-tail nicely with AP tests for many subjects.</p>
<p>Also, do the students who attend academically elite high schools find the PSAT, SAT, and ACT that stressful? Those tests should not exactly be difficult for them, especially since the selection process for academically elite high schools involves taking tests (so students have been pre-selected as good test takers).</p>
<p>I can only speak for my own child’s experience with standardized testing. She did feel the need to prep for the SAT which she actually took for the first time today. Yes, she did find the last few months stressful preparing for the SAT on top of her course load. </p>
<p>“our approach has been to enroll her in a competitive boarding school thats offers a broad, deep and rigorous curriculum. This is obviously a path that some would not choose to take. They do have honors classes, but no longer offer the branded “AP” classes. Many students choose to sit for the exams in June if in an honors class,”</p>
<p>So, you put your child into an elite school full of elite students where all the classes are rigorous or essentially AP level even if they aren’t labeled AP (because the kids can and do sit for the AP exams if they choose to) but you think people whose options are far more limited shouldn’t be taking advantage of the limited number of classes which are available to them?</p>
<p>It’s easy to say, oh you don’t need AP, honors is good enough, when you have access to good honors classes full of elite students and teachers who have the luxury of teaching students like that. But we don’t. Most of our honors classes are pretty slow moving and easy for the top students. In some cases, we don’t even have honors level classes. You take AP, or you take regular and regular is a total waste of time. </p>
<p>My daughter was not particularly stressed by the AP exams themselves. She didn’t even study for some of them. But all the AP classes have a fairly high workload all year long. I can see that kids who aren’t as bright and/or aren’t as interested in academics would have trouble with this. Those families need to be honest about their child’s abilities and interests. Sometimes it’s a matter of kids having extreme extracurricular commitments. Those kids will get a huge boost on their applications from their extracurricular accomplishments. It’s not reasonable for such families to insist on capping the academic opportunities of other kids who aren’t spending 30 hours a week training for their sport or touring with their musical group.</p>
<p>“I suspect they don’t care very much beyond a certain point. But if they don’t care at all, then why haven’t other colleges followed UNC’s lead?”</p>
<p>I don’t know. The reason that UNC says that they do not care, is that their data show that students with AP class experience perform better when they get to UNC, up to a level of 5 AP classes, and then they do not continue to show enhanced performance. I have to think that this leveling occurs at all schools at some point.</p>