<p>The social norm of reciprocity is a very strong, internalized rule.</p>
<p>"Hunt,
When you take your family on nice trips, do you instruct your kids not to tell their friends about it, because you don’t want the poorer ones to feel bad, because you feel sorry for them that they can’t go? "</p>
<p>What about the reverse? Someone recently told us they took a vacation to Europe, spent over 10k (income of 45k). Several of us knew it was way beyond this person’s means and while some of us could afford it comfortably, we would not dream of spending it on a vacation.</p>
<p>" “yeah, well, everyone has problems. An extreme physical deformity is just one thing. And anyway, that guy gets to live in Italy and even to meet the Pope!” </p>
<p>“Yeah, and I have a pimple, and I can’t afford to remodel the kitchen…”</p>
<p>I’m a bit surprised to read about all the spending by college students. I am sure there were many wealthy students at my college, but I never heard of anything like people taking a helicopter to NY. Once, I went skiing with some friends. We got up early and drove to the ski area for the day. I can’t remember whose car we used. Not many students had one.</p>
<p>As for gifts, I never heard of anyone giving pricey gifts in college; there wasn’t that much gift-giving anyhow and the gifts were pretty low-key. A cute mug would have been absolutely in-line. I recall receiving a box of homemade fudge and a small stuffed animal. Not even all roommates exchanged gifts.</p>
<p>There was lots of entertainment on campus and it was most often free or just a few dollars. And going out to dinner wasn’t a routine, kids generally ate on the meal plan. I’m guessing that only perhaps a quarter of the kids at a top private school are wealthy enough to care nothing about throwing the money their parents spent on the meal plan in the trash day after day.</p>
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<p>Perhaps its a regional thing. We were always taught that it is not the value of the gift, but “the thought that counts.” I think I have heard that in other cultures, the value matters a lot. But that is not an American tradition.</p>
<p>We hand out gifts to teachers around Christmas, just acknowledging their service to us.</p>
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<p>That is a good rule, but it doesn’t solve the problem of making others, who you feel sorry for, not feel bad. If they ask and you tell them, they are going to know, and then you will have to feel sorry for them. If your kids ask them about their holiday in return, whoa, that could really lead to a pitiful result. Your kids went to Europe, they stayed home in sticks.</p>
<p>Bay, I think the implication of reciprocity IS an American tradition. Here’s a good example–weddings. I have heard brides complain about gifts they received that did not measure up to the dollar value of hosting each guest. I have also witnessed the same thing with my daughter regarding secret Santa gifts for her dance friends–the other way. She has usually been the one who comes up with a modest “candy-in-a-mug”-type gift, because that is what she can afford. In exchange she has occasionally gotten clothes or perfume or other much more extravagant gifts. It makes her feel awkward.</p>
<p>Discussed or not these kids know they have less advantages than many of their peers. Remember, they are smart.</p>
<p>No doubt, at times they will feel awkward. I don’t see that as a major issue. My apologies.</p>
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<p>One person’s “embarrassingly ostentatious” is another person’s “kind and generous and doesn’t expect anything in return beyond a hearty thank you.” I can think of people who are in positions to do very nice things for friends and family and depending on the person, it would come across as either a show-offy, look-what-I-can-afford gesture or a I’ve-been-fortunate-and-I’d-love-to-share-this-with-you. It’s really hard to say that it’s one size fits all. Personally, I used to keep a LOT of score on this type of thing – fretting about equality and so forth – and found myself being happier once I let go of expectations. But it’s not easy to do, that’s for sure. </p>
<p>(I don’t give Xmas/birthday gifts to my friends as a matter of course, and neither do my kids with their friends. We’re just not a “gift” family, even though we could afford to. It’s the excess clutter, not the cost, that prevents us from doing so.)</p>
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<p>I’m somewhere in between the Hunt-view and the Bay-view on this, but I would note that it seems as though there is a view that “rich kids have everything.” Except for the super-rich, EVERYONE makes tradeoffs, and full-pay (or whatever your definition of wealthy is) doesn’t mean “and therefore everything you look at and want, you get.”</p>
<p>Plenty of people complain about getting chintzy gifts from those from whom they expected better, and to whom they had given better. People take a clue about how you feel about them from the gift you give. They notice the value, they notice whether you demonstrated an awareness of what pleases them, and they notice how their gift stacks up to what was given to a person of similar status in your life. Of course, a normal person takes into consideration the giver’s resources and a good person won’t make an issue of it. But notice they do. The gift is a reflection of the giver, like it or not, right or wrong. It think it’s unrealistic to expect less affluent students to have no pride at all in how they present themselves to others, nor concern for the feelings of their friends who may not all be as altruistic as Bay.</p>
<p>sally,</p>
<p>Thank yous are obligatory. Gifts of reciprocal value are absolutely not. If you expect to receive a gift of equal value, then you need to change that way of thinking.</p>
<p>I agree, Bay. I am just telling you what I have observed.</p>
<p>TheGFG,</p>
<p>Associating the ability to give an expensive with pride in oneself is just falling into the trap that people here are criticizing. That is, having and spending money is the most important thing, and people who don’t have as much should be pitied. The cycle will never be broken if all these smart kids at awesome universities continue to let it get to them and perpetuate it.</p>
<p>GFG, you will not believe me but I assure you NONE of your D’s friends expect reciprocity for their gifts. And I doubt she doesn’t have a single friend who comes from more modest circumstances than you.</p>
<p>One of my kids was treated to a Broadway show, dinner out, and all transportation costs by a suite mate (not a close friend… just someone living in proximity Freshman year). I think the parents did it so as not to be exclusive and single out the three suitemates who were close friends and leave out the others. Very nice of them. They would have been appalled if they thought that ANYONE in the group would feel pressure to do anything besides say thank you (I insisted that my kid follow up with a note) and perhaps leave a plate of chocolate chip cookie on the communal coffee table with a sign “Thanks for a fun evening”.</p>
<p>Unless your D’s friends are total clods- which I doubt, since they are your D’s friends, they would be mortified if they thought their generosity was in any way causing her anxiety (or financial stress.) Learning to say thank you- and a few “Oh i love it’s”- and figuring out how to do something thoughtful in return is a great life’s lesson, especially when there is a huge disparity in purchasing power.</p>
<p>If you read my earlier post, you’d see that we don’t feel the need to match the gift’s value, and couldn’t if even if we did feel the need. However, there’s an acceptable range that is understood and within which most people won’t take notice of the disparity or be offended. Candy-in-a-mug is clearly not within the acceptable range with those friends, and even the most enlightened poor college student is not going to change that. Suggesting the poor student should change it, is just adding another burden.</p>
<p>To suggest that all her rich friends are similarly enlightened and would be appalled is also not realistic.</p>
<p>When a parent treats a student’s friends, that’s not the same thing IMO.</p>
<p>If someone receives candy-in-a-mug from a poorer friend for whom candy-in-a-mug is all she can reasonably scrounge up – and thinks ill of that poorer friend as a result – then screw them. Really. It’s not the poor person who looks bad in that scenario, and it’s not the poor person who should feel bad either. </p>
<p>We have a word for such people. They are called jerks.</p>
<p>I don’t envy anyone else’s money or possessions, or trips. </p>
<p>BUT I would be uncomfortable if one of my very wealthy friends unexpectedly gave me a gift of a helicopter ride or a trip. I would honestly wonder why they would leap from the token gifts we all exchange to something that extravagant. It would feel wrong. And it would feel wrong for gifts between friends (who are equal partners in the relationship) to be that lopsided.</p>
<p>I would not feel at all uncomfortable if a friend asked my to accompany her on a helicopter ride she had booked for herself, or asked me to go with her on a trip. </p>
<p>I caught a discussion about the issue of lopsided gift giving, and how awkward it makes the low end giver feel, on a radio show last week. The conclusion the hosts and callers came to was that it was unfair to the low end giver, and something of a power play by the extravagant giver.</p>
<p>Sorry, none of your arguements are persuasive. The fact is, for many the transition into college and feeling like they don’t belong and should be back home helping out the folks is just too overwhelming in spite of their aid money. The statistics are what they are many will fail. It just seems to me that in order to protect their already humongous investment, it would be an intelligent choice for schools to do something else to help them acclimate. FA is not a true gift per se. It comes with strings attached, the successful performance in school. It’s not a sound comparison.</p>
<p>Before you all pile on, no need, I get that a lot of you are ‘pick yourself by your own bootstraps,’ mentality and I get that to some extent. When I’m in line at the grocery in my hometown, that has a median avg income of $100k and I see the person in front of me paying withh foodstamps, sometimes a non-charitable thought or two crosses my mind. I get it. But if the cycle is to ever end, it has to start somewhere and education is the thing.</p>