<p>vicks, absolutely not you can draw a much clearer and moral line with finance and domestic problems than you can with race, now i know what some of you will bring up, statistics of black men or something, but that speaks for itself, then you must also bring up the economic status of these same men , come to LA or newark(i live here) and you'll see how rich these blacks you hate against are</p>
<p>PS i'm asian ;)</p>
<p>Consideration of income level would certainly bring one aspect of diversity to campus and some colleges are making more efforts in this direction than others. Harvard, whose student body's families have a median income of $150K, is making it completely "free" to anyone whose family income is less than $40K per year. 35 percent of Smith students come from families earning $41K a year or less. Perhaps it's needless to say, but it's still harder for lower-income students to get to top colleges in the first place...it's as if they're running a race with weights strapped to their ankles. Upper income students have so many advantages accrue, beginning with familial expectations (for so many lower-income students going to college, particularly a non-CC non-State college is almost as bizarre a notion as the rest of us going to Middle Earth), familial knowledge of how the game is played, having counselors that slot them into appropriate classes by paying attention to the <em>student</em>, not their family background, etc.</p>
<p>However, the same set of factors also apply to URM's, even middle- and upper-class ones. Anyone who thinks that middle- and upper-class blacks and Hispanics do not have a very different experience of the world, which is a valuable perspective to have in an academic community, is living a very insular, ignorant existence.</p>
<p>Moreover, as someone on the old board noted, an acid test: as a thought experiement, the number of white and Asian students who would willingly become black to get URM benefits is exceedingly small, even if they retained their current economic class.</p>
<p>But that ignores one's love for one's culture. How many black people would agree to become Asian to escape racism?</p>
<p>congratulations c0ll3g3Dr460n, on your first post you managed to make one of the dumbest arguments on this board. btw, thedad, don't you have some real work to do? affirmative action will never change and whites will continue to be screwed over by it for the most part. this is not a racist post, this is a truthful post.</p>
<p>I'm not even sure what you're arguing there...
You completely ignore my point and go ad hominem.</p>
<p>bumppppppppppp</p>
<p>I posted something similar in another thread and I'll repeat it here:</p>
<p>Most people have no idea what racial preference/affirmative action is and what it does. Checking the black/hispanic box does NOT automatically give you a better chance than a white or asian person(and of course these are all generalizations. All blacks are not the same, all whites are not the same, etc.). How many times do we see on these boards a URM posting that they have a 1230 SAT, and someone says "oh yeah, you have a shot at Harvard/Cornell/Penn/etc." That's not how it works. Also, the stories that go "I know a black person that had an 1140 on his SAT and got into Harvard/Yale/whatever" are not the be all end all in this issue. I can provide myself as an example. I am a black male from Long Island, living in a town w/ a large minority population, very middle class, rigorous public school. I had a 1340 SAT, 3.69 GPA in the hardest classes(AP, advanced, college level). I had college credit from Georgetown and was taking a class at the local community college. I was in the orchestra and had other ECs. I was DENIED(contrary to popular opinion that I had a great shot at every top school) from Yale, Penn, Brown, and Johns Hopkins. I have a fall 2005 guaranteed transfer admissions offer to Cornell University. I'm a freshman at Georgetown University. Now, my friend had a 1290 SAT, slightly higher GPA, and was admitted to the Wharton School, while I was denied from Penn CAS. Meaning, checking the black box does not mean you're home free.</p>
<p>As has been said before, the experience of all people, whether black, white, asian, upper class, middle class, etc., is not the same. Contrary to PC beliefs, racism STILL exists in this country. I went to Yale for a summer program, and was called the "token black guy". I've been told that i'm "an exception to [my] race". I'm at Georgetown, and then I find out that some person had sent a racist email threat to the campus chapter of the NAACP. A student wrote in the newspaper a few months ago that we don't need an African studies or African American studies department(s). Look on the internet and you'll find people wanting to send all minorities(including Asians) "back to where they came from". Minorities are said to be genetically inferior to the majority. Racism is not dead in the United States, and exists, whether it is out in the open or not. Thus the experiences of whites, asians, blacks, hispanics, etc. are not the same. Also, all racism was not created equal, so you can't say that some groups have combated it already, so why can't others. </p>
<p>Now, while I believe that you should NOT gain preference for simply checking off African American or Hispanic, I do not believe that that is the case. The vast majority of minorities that I've met at Georgetown had high GPAs in high school, SATs 1300 or higher, and other experiences in their lives. I hardly found the blacks with 1100s and 2.9 GPAs that people talk about on these boards. Colleges accept people that they believe will do well at their institutions. They have reputations to keep up, and won't accept anyone. Who are we to say who is "more qualified" than another? Until you sit in the college admissions committee room, you cannot fully understand what a college is looking for, especially the top schools.</p>
<p>And once again, if you truly believe that you will be hurt by noting your background, DON'T PUT IT DOWN! No one's forcing you to do so. If you believe that it will help you and you believe that you want to get in "on your own"(whatever that means), DON'T PUT IT DOWN!</p>
<p>Instead of making generalizations about what blacks and hispanics believe or want, or what they experience, learn about what a college is TRULY looking for, not what you think it is.</p>
<p>Amen to that post.</p>
<p>is it just me or am i missing something,lol?</p>
<p>Wow your friend was admitted to Wharton with a 1290 SAT? That makes me extremely angry. I got a 1600 on the SAT have a 4.0 and all around stellar academic stats and I got deferred. Anyone who doesn't think that race plays a huge factor is mistaking.</p>
<p>Numbers and scores are only a part of the admissions process and only gets you through the first hurdle in the admissions process (that's why they have rec, essays EC's). The rest of the process is pretty wholistic, SAT scores and grades are looked at in context to one's envioronment. </p>
<p>A student who comes from a school in a low income community where a low number of students graduate, or even goes to a 4 year school and the average SAT score for that school is under 900, scores a 1290 on the SAT while also working part time to help support the family is going to be looked at differently than someone from an elite prep school where parents have 6/7 figure incomes, the average SAT is 1300 and sends loads of kids to Ivies/elite schools.</p>
<p>I am black and my parents are both immigrants who are making alot of money now. I go to a normal public school which has about a 12 percent african american population but I am only 1 of 2 black people applying to amazing colleges. Though some others are doing fine, the majority are either dropping out or completing their 5th year of high school. From my experience I find this to be very discouraging and in my school I dont get anything but ridicule and laughter about my high grades from my black peers. This has certainly affected how I do in school and also it makes me ashamed to get the grades I get. I beleive that this situation that I am forced to deal with should give me preference since I have to live with such an emotinal trauma all through my high school career without any motivation at all.</p>
<p>Samp, she had A LOT of ECs, president/vp of various clubs, high GPA, took a course at Georgetown Summer College, went to a program in England, and so much more. the SAT is not the most important factor in admissions, and colleges repeat that over and over. There are many non-URMs that get in with sub 1400 scores. And as I said above, she got into Wharton with a 1290, I got denied from Penn CAS with a 1340. This means that 1)the SAT isn't everything, 2)checking the black or other URM box on the app doesn't mean you're home free.</p>
<p>chrisscare, if the income factor is a better indicator, why do colleges use AA instead?</p>
<p>TheDad, I'm not sure what umean by the acid test.</p>
<p>Vtran, it's simple: if you think the benefits of AA are unjustified and that URM's, even middle-class and wealthy ones, don't face day-to-day burdens that their White and Asian peers do, then (assuming it could be done) you would have every incentive to sign up to change to becoming a URM. </p>
<p>Someone downthread tried to parry with something along the lines of ethnic pride. And that's part of the point: who you are as an individual and how you perform is partially a function of who you are in broader context.</p>
<p>Of the recent posts, I recommend a close reading of Sybbie's post again along with Pennhopeful's and Stanmaster's. I know of black students who have transferred to schools outside their neighborhood's so that they don't get the day to day ridicule from their peers in the neighborhood about "acting white." If you think that is inconsequential, you haven't lived much.</p>
<p>TheDead said:Vtran, it's simple: if you think the benefits of AA are unjustified and that URM's, even middle-class and wealthy ones, don't face day-to-day burdens that their White and Asian peers do, then (assuming it could be done) you would have every incentive to sign up to change to becoming a URM.</p>
<p>I wouldn't do that because I don't want to lie my way into college. I don't thing just being a URM makes u bear some extra burdens.</p>
<p>TheDad said:Someone downthread tried to parry with something along the lines of ethnic pride. And that's part of the point: who you are as an individual and how you perform is partially a function of who you are in broader context.</p>
<p>I'm not particular on ethnic pride. I'm a person, period. I am who I am and my race doesn't particularly afftect that. If you have ethnic pride... go you.<br>
Did u indicate that being a certain ethnicity affects how you function? Like being black makes u less educated or something?</p>
<p>TheDad said:Of the recent posts, I recommend a close reading of Sybbie's post again along with Pennhopeful's and Stanmaster's. I know of black students who have transferred to schools outside their neighborhood's so that they don't get the day to day ridicule from their peers in the neighborhood about "acting white." If you think that is inconsequeTheDad said:ntial, you haven't lived much.</p>
<p>so you say that nearly all URM's face similar conditions? I don't buy that. Perhaps I haven't lived much but I think that to mold the majority of URM's into that catagory (that if u are smart or academic u are ostracized from your community) is wrong. and even if it isn't, what if that happens to a white person? What if his family or community in general is uneducation and thinks people are high and mighty who try to get an education (a la'Pap' and Huck in Huckleberry Finn).</p>
<p>Please tell me how many white people live in a white communtiy where they are ridiculded for doing well at school. Give me a break, that rarely happens at all and if it is true they still have the majority of their peers to look up to. The black kids of today are setting their own trail and we go through things you would never understand since you have never been in our shoes.</p>
<p>Vtran, if you don't think being a URM involves bearing extra burdens, regardless of economic class, then further discussion is pointless. You're wrong but I can't help you.</p>
<p>Vtran : "I wouldn't do that because I don't want to lie my way into college. I don't thing just being a URM makes u bear some extra burdens."</p>
<p>Please explain how URMs are lying their way into college.</p>
<p>This is getting a bit out of hand. You have to look at it from vtran's perspective. Why does someone who has tried their hardest but hasn't had personal struggle have higher admission standards. Is it vtran's fault that he is wealthy/middleclass is familial success something that detracts, or is less meaningful than overcoming burden. I think their is validity to both sides of the argument and I am sure the universities are trying their best to accomodate adversity while not outright discriminating against middle class applicants. On a side note for most teenagers success comes at a social cost, not just for blacks.</p>