Asian Americans

Applying to College
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<p>thank you for contributing, Cali--diversity in friends and communities should be promoted, although we on this thread have different ideas on how. </p>

<p>I'm sorry I'm not going to be able to post anything remotely complicated for the next few days (ice: let me get back to professional asian demography in a few, okay?) I'd just like to say: everyone out there, stay healthy, take VC and DO NOT get the flu. Best.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Unless I'm some sort of extreme anomaly, it's pretty unfair to classify all Asians as such. Other types of Asian, such as Vietnamese or Laotian, dictates the lives of their children less so than others. You make us sound like prestige wh0res with absolutely no passion for our achievements.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>EXACTLY. Not all Asians fit the stereotypes that they go to school for their parents. I'm (and it seems you are too) a living proof of this. My parents don't care which university I'll be attending, hell they don't even care about my grades as long as I do the best I can. And believe me, it's more of a positive reinforcement than the other way around. That makes getting good grades more as the thing that I WANT than what I MUST do.</p>

<p>Anyway, when you say "Asian Americans", do you mean Asians that were born or raised in US, "real" -for the lack of better terms- Asian (such as those who hold student visa or are immigrants), or half-Asian? I'm still not sure about the usage of the term, but as far as I know, Asian Americans are full blooded Asians that were born or raised in US.</p>

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<p>we're so stubborn we're unwilling to even open our eyes to the possibility of another perspective.</p>

<p>Many of you are right. We can agree on the fact that schools care about more than academics, but we can at the SAME TIME acknowledge that for a certain tier of school, regardless of an applicant's personal qualities and extra curriculars, a level of academic ability needs to be met. All exaggerations aside, a student with substantially better grades and better standardized test scores WILL stand a better chance of being accepted into the top tier schools.</p>

<p>We can also agree that diversity = good thing. I have friends of all races and it sure as hell beats befriending all white/asian kids. Of course, there's a downside to providing a diverse campus. The simple fact is that on the average, the test scores and grades of blacks/hispanics/native americans are below those of whites and asians. This is a result of economic and cultural difference, and it simply cannot be corrected within a few years or even a few decades. Asians value grades and test scores and achievement, they see numbers as representative of performance and intelligence, while "URMs" are in general more community-oriented and place less stress on concrete measurements of ability.</p>

<p>Both of those approaches to growth and education have merit, and neither should be criticized or scoffed at, but in the end, it yields a disparity in test scores and academic achievement. I am asian, yet, after learning more about the circumstances around it, for the most part I support affirmative action. Perhaps in the future certain changes can be made to the basis of education that will help eliminate this disparity altogether, so that we wouldn't have to "lower the standards" for URMs (which in itself is a very condescending act toward a whole group of people), or evoke the anger of qualified non-URMs who see less "academically capable" students of color admitted to their dream schools. This is not to say that the students of color did not DESERVE the spot (especially if they came from a disadvantaged background, which meant that they probably had to work three times as hard as you did to get to where they are), but no one ever feels good being rejected from their dream college, and sometimes the disappointment is focused into indignation which is focused into anger. We must understand their sentiments as well.</p>

<p>Lastly, I just wanted to comment on the stereotype of the asian student that seems to be brought up over and over again in this forum. They are mentioned with negative connotations, which does sadden me a bit. First of all, we are americans (to whoever mentioned something about how "americans" do things), we simply come from a different background and culture. Especially for us first generation asian-americans, there's a constant struggle of trying to understand where our parents come from vs. how we have been raised. As a result, personally, I believe I am able to straddle the line with a foot in both worlds and understand both modes of thinking. I think I will try to explain, hopefully with additional knowledge, stereotypes would fade.</p>

<p>My parents have been "pushy" all my life. They've frowned upon B+s and cringed at 1400s. At times, I have hated them for it. I mean, who wants to come home truly excited about a B on a difficult test only to be treated with a silent nod and a tilt of the head? Sometimes, they'd exchange a glance that would make my heart drop straight to the floor. In my earlier years in school, I have brought home 97s on math tests and been asked where the other three points had gone. Growing up in such an environment was trying at times, and I can't say that I haven't thrown tantrums or cried or banged things around in my frustration. But as I have grown older, I have come to understand and appreciate what they have done for me and why they have done it. Immigrant parents generally leave behind a difficult upbringing and existence when they come to this country, my parents included. They have poured all their heart and soul into my upbringing, hoping, dreaming, that maybe by leaving they have set me up for something great. They grew up in war, worked and lived on farms, scraped the bottoms of their bowls for last bits of food before a next wave of starvation. They wanted to offer me the very best opportunities possible - we no longer have to worry about food or shelter, so they raise their expectations of me. The expectations seemed like cruel and unusual punishment for a spoiled child like me, but they were made with the best of intentions. Yes, I play the piano. I was originally pushed into it reluctantly, but I have grown to love it, and in turn, I love music. Yes, I love math, and I love science, but I also love art (photography specifically). Every one of my endeavors have been supported equally by my parents - lately they have been trying to hide from me the fact that they're looking to get me a decent digital camera for my birthday (something really way out of our budget range and would eat up quite a portion of our savings - also something I have logically protested in the past, despite how much I would love one). </p>

<p>Yes, they are concerned with my grades and SAT scores. In the culture from which they came, college admissions is SOLELY based on ONE standardized test. The cut off is solid and unwavering, and no one cares about how many clubs you run or how personable you are. It is difficult for them to fully accept the system I'm dealing with. "What do you mean? 1600 is the best you can get! How can they reject the best?" As a result, I have lived my entire academic life under their expectations. Junior year, they suddenly cut off their involvement in my academics altogether. I thought I would have felt a weight lift off my shoulders, yet it remained; I realized then that these were expectations I had for myself. Somehow, under my parents' asian watchful pressure, I had learned to stand on my own, to dream, to love, to reach. Since they have stopped reading my report cards, my grades and my love for education have only risen.</p>

<p>They do not know how to judge colleges beyond the ranking system because they are not familiar with the system. What they do know is that want the best for me, and in researching and reading about colleges, they have only spotted the best ranked. Yet, in the end, the decision is still mine. They had never heard of University of Chicago, yet listened when I explained to them why I wanted to go there. I'm sure they still dont understand why it's so great, but they are trying their best to support me in my decisions. I'm an astronomy major. They believed medicine was the most practical route of study - makes a great deal of money (never worry about going hungry again), and gains a great deal of knowledge... it was their dream to become practicing doctors, and they believe I have the ability. Yet they have stepped aside to let me explore.</p>

<p>I play three sports, been through several jobs, and run a prejudice reduction conference. These are immensely important aspects of my life yet in the context of my parents' lives, they cannot fully understand why I care so much. And they probably won't. Despite the culture differences they have let me live my "Americanized" life, and yet in some way, I will still owe everything I am and everything I achieve to these asian folks that can't quite, but tries their very best to, understand me.</p>

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<p>I work with about 40-50 Asian families each year. All but a handful each year have a student who is premed-bio, biomed eng, chem-those type of sciences, computer science, engineering. I've yet to see one student who is not proficient in at least one instrument, usually strings or piano. Never drums, sometimes oboe, flute, never the brass. This is over 10 years. But I also like to collect info from College books when I can get my eyes on them. And that info also supports my data. That is not to say that there are not such Asians. I certainly agree that Asians are in every area of academia and every major. In fact, there are some Asians at S's school who are majoring in the humanities and social science. But when I lived right near Carnegie Mellon U, a school with a large Asian population, you could see very clearly each year where the Asian majors cluster. Not at the school of Humanities and Social Science, I guarantee you. </p>

<p>I also read a statement on this thread that colleges consider that academic are the biggest factor for admissions. That is not quite true. Yes, every admit has to show a certain minimum threshhold of academic ability, and the top school want to keep high stats as averages. But Harvard recently said that only about a third of their admits were for purely academic reasons, and those kids were true superstars academically. Something beyond the stats, like getting a book published, working on some research project that is very impressive, etc.</p>

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<p>pebbles: wow. you hit right on.</p>

<p>i am a immigrant asian american and that's exactly how my parents are and exactly how i feel about them. i own my love to learn to my parents, no matter how much my mom bugs me about sat I and sat IIs or how my dad complained to my brother about me being interested in cornell. he lives in hong kong and work hard to earn money so my sister and I can stay in a community with good high schools. therefore, the one school he is truly familiar with is UC Berkeley especially because it is recently placed second world wide. nevertheless, he NEVER once opposed to my decision. sure he complained about it to my brother and mom about how much he wants me to stay close to home and go to a renowned school, but he never discouraged me. </p>

<p>it is a fine line to walk between american culture and chinese culture. </p>

<p>it's too bad only the ones who experienced first hand can imagine. only those who experienced first hand can truly understand the asian culture. it is a lot more complicated than stereotypes and statistics.</p>

<p>i have to admit after thinking about AA. i wished i didn't have to be the asian that might be rejected either of the lack of my academic capabilities in the ever-so competitive world or need for diversity. but you must always have gave up something in order to gain something else.</p>

<p>most people agreed that it is because of the different cultures that we place importance in different things. asian culture revolved around education. my mom always told me that i will always be at a disadvantage that's why i must try harder at everything, most importantly school. maybe becuase of AA, more URMs would be able to go to college and they could pass on the importance of education to their children. it is idealistic. but maybe in a couple of generations, we don't need AA in order to create diversity.</p>

<p>p.s. i just want to say that i am not proficient at any instruments. i attempted piano twice and failed. however, i dance. and that is something that i love. i guess i am that handful.</p>

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<p>Wooowww.</p>

<p>Well, I'm asian, and a lot of people sound exactly like my friends describing their parents. I have never ever felt this pressure to succeed; I don't play any instrument, and I'm pullling a quite mediocre grade in math and science. My strong points are languages, history, and english. I've never wanted to be a doctor or engineer. My parents don't care about what I study or what grade I make as long as I love what I'm learning (and I really do). In fact, when my college counselors told me that I was nearing the top of the class and that I should apply to HYPS, I was in a state of utter shock... so were my parents. They didn't want me to blindly go to a school just because it was a HYPS or because other people would be impressed. They never had a college in mind (that's a lie actually, they always wanted me to go to a school near home, since my mom said moving the family up to the north would be a hassle THANK GOD SHE'S KIDDING). Seriously though, they were never trying to push me down a path where successful meant rich. They wanted successful to mean happy.</p>

<p>Anyway! I put Asian American on all my applications. My name is pretty ambiguous, but I'm not going to go if they would have rejected me for being Asian. I want to be admitted as the whole me, not a me wiped clean of discerning physical and cultural features. If I'm accepted (sometimes I secretly hope not to go to a well-known school), I will be majoring in a Humanity or Social Science.</p>

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<p>Emperor Brent - Is that Brent in Manila???</p>

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<p>Sorry, fast read on my part...Physics, not Government, it is. </p>

<p>However, the salient data for Harvard for be, what percentage of the Asian component of students are enrolled in concentrations in each of the following broad groups: I Science/Math/Engineering, II Social Sciences, III Humanities and Languages, IV Arts.</p>

<p>Folks, all your individual exceptions don't matter. We're talking about demographic trends and Jamimom's post nails it pretty well...why don't you argue that her experience on the pre-college end of things is completely wrong while you're at it?</p>

<p>Mentally reviewing this thread, there seem to be a series of propositions that many of you founder upon. The incorrect beliefs are:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Affirmative Action is about redressing victims.</p></li>
<li><p>Asian students are no different from White students in choosing the schools they apply to.</p></li>
<li><p>Asian students are no different from White students in what fields they choose to study.</p></li>
<li><p>The pattern of EC's most commonly found on applications of Asian students is no different from those of White students.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Items 2, 3, and 4 each have an effect on the profile of Asian admissions. Cumulatively, it has the effect that many of you are complaining about. It really helps to understand that interplay though it may not make you feel better about the results. There was a point #5 I was going to add but I was interrupted and now have forgotten...if it's essential, I'll add it in later.</p>

<p>For purposes of this discussion, I'll stipulate "Asian" to mean of Chinese, Korean, Japanese descent...I think it applies to Indian and Pakistani, too, but I'm not as sure of my ground on that one and will exclude for the purpose of this discussion.</p>

<p>Btw, some of you might want to go to the thread in the "High School Life" forum and talk to some of your Asian peers about their choices in light of parental expectations.</p>

<p>CaliChineseGirl...you are quite correct...it's more complicated than stereotypes and statistics. Stereotypes qua stereotypes may be ignored--and should be--but the statistics <em>and their implications</em> have to be confonted.</p>

<p>Pebbles, thank you for your eloquent post. One thing that I am deeply aware of us is how many Asian students feel squeezed between realities on one hand and parental expectations on the other. Good luck with U/Chicago...one of my D's best friends has applied there ED in neuroscience.</p>

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<p>Out of all the elites, Stanford, MIT, and Caltech are the only ones that are modestly fair to Asian-Americans. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and the rest of the ivies have really low numbers of Asian-Americans.</p>

170

<p>H, Y, and P have 19, 15, and 13 percent Asian enrollment compared to, what, 8 percent of the general population?</p>

<p>Any claim of "unfair" can not be addressed without addressing points 2, 3, and 4 in my post below.</p>

171

<p>I am a half-Asian, half-white girl. My name gives the impression that I am white, not Asian. Based on what people have told me in the past, it would be a slight advantage if I were 'not' Asian. Should I leave the ethnicity box blank? I won't even get into responding to all these AA comments... seems every side of the argument has been taken care of. Advice please!</p>

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<p>It probably makes no difference. But since the only difference it could make is negative, I wouldn't do it unless you were applying to some Midwestern or Southern school where Asians are underrepresented. E.g., Auburn = 1 percent Asian.</p>

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<p>Any claim of "unfair" can not be addressed without addressing points 2, 3, and 4 in my post below.>>>>>>></p>

<p>Yes, but also remember that 50% of Asians attend college, compared with like 20% of others. Also, Asian Americans score substantially higher on the SAT (not counting 1.5 generation which will have more difficulty on SAT Verbal). Also, even when College Board changed the SAT so that in every which possible way it becomes a disadvatage to be Asian (Just like the NBA changed the rules because Shaq was too dominating). So in the end, Asians have quite an uphill battle to climb. THis is what most Asians are complaining about. This "uphill Battle" that is a CONSTANT factor in our lives. </p>

<p>I am sure that you cannot deny that the Ivies discriminate against Asians. It gets to the point where an Asian from UC Irvine engineering can be as smart as an Asian from Harvard engineering, but due to the discrimination against Asians, the selection of Asians is probably based more on their "whitewashed" attitude in life, instead of their intelligence and talent.</p>

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<p>Sybbie said:</p>

<p>"Let me ask you a question, why was AA the greatest thing since sliced bread when people of color began flocking to schools that they would have not otherwise had gotten into with out it. Asians have been one of the biggest benefactors of AA."</p>

<p>The is absolutely basis in truth for the statement above</p>

<p>Please click on the Parents Forum for a complete discussion:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...read.php?t=1592%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...read.php?t=1592&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>There is much information on this issue, but the media does not publicize this issue because it is politically incorrect.</p>

<p>Asian Americans to my knowledge HAVE NEVER received race-based AA in elite
college admissions. They never asked for it, nor they want it or require
it for admissions to Harvard or the elites. Race-based AA discriminates against Asians Americans with de facto quotas limiting their numbers, not increasing their numbers,
no matter what criteria or standards are used for admission EVEN EXCLUDING
SAT SCORES AND GPAs. Asian Americans have all the characteristics necessary
for admission, including sports, special talents, motivation, hard work,
creativity and the overcoming of hardships and economic disadvantage.</p>

<p>Of course if you factor in SAT scores and GPAs Asian Americans will win
hands down without considering other criteria for admissions. What I am
saying is that even if you FACTOR OUT SAT scores and GPAs and use holistic
criteria only, leaving race out as a factor for admissions, Asian Americans
are also disproporrtionately qualified. THEY ARE NOT ONE-DIMENSIONAL
PRE-MED VIOLINIISTS, according to the RACIST stereotypes used by some,
because they are in every field of study and endeavor and in every field of
extracurricular activities on the college campus.There is no truth to this
stereotype. For instance, just look at the writers for the Harvard Crimson
or any other college newspaper. There are hardly ANY Blacks or Latinos as
writers on the college newspaper staffs, but many Asian Americans .Students at Brown even bemoaned this fact. Look at Harvard's 41 varsity sports teams which are
non-contact, such as tennis or gymnastics. Asians are well represented. The
Yale women's team in Gymnastics won the Ivy Championship last year with
their best NATIONALLY ranked female gymnast, Ms. Fong, a Chinese American,and a graduate of St. Ann's School in Brooklyn, NYC, a prestigious day prep ranked as a top feeder for the Ivies by Worth Magazine and the Wall Street Journal. The best tennis player on the Exeter's New England Prep League Championship team was a Chinese American last year which enabled the team to dominate in its league. Andover's best female swimmer on their women's League championship team this year is a Korean born swimmer who qualified for the summer Olympics and enabled the Andover team to dominate female swimming. I could go on and on tto break these racist stereotypes of Asian American students.</p>

<p>We must eliminate race-based admissions. Admissions must be race-neutral.</p>

<p>Asian Americans are required to meet a higher standard of achievement for
admissions and this most highly qualified group are admitted at the lowest
rates compared to very other group, including whites.</p>

<p>Studies (done internally when charges of bias were presented) at Brown and
Stanford have clearly disputed the stereotyped image of an Asian American
applicant as being "one dimensional" with no extracurricular activities
except for music. This image only existed in the biased views of the some
of the admission officers. These studies have shown that there was an
unexplained bias in admissions and in fact, the Asian American group
appeared better prepared by any standards used, yet had only a 60% to 70%
admission rate compared to the white applicant group at Stanford. The
Admissions Dean of Stanford could not explain the disparity, but at least
she admitted that there was one. Many of the heads and admission officers
of the elite schools don't even acknowledge that the problem even exists.
The Asian applicants were better prepared than the white group, yet have a
lower admission rate.</p>

<p>Stanford's Committee on Undergraduate Admissions and Financial Aid
discovered, after an inquiry, that between 1982 and 1985 Asian Americans
were one-third less likely than whites to be offered admission, even though
they were on average better prepared than white applicants. Annual Report
of CUAFA, Stanford University, 1986, reprinted in "Campus Report",
November 12, 1986.</p>

<p>Some admissions officials have complained that Asian Americans tend to be
lacking in extracurricular and personal qualities, which universities
consider along with grades to ensure that they get well-rounded
individuals. But there is no systematic evidence to this; indeed a report
by the Corporation Committee on Minority Affairs (CCMI) at Brown,
established to investigate charges of anti-Asian discrimination, found such
assumptions to be the result of "cultural bias and stereotypes which
prevail in the admissions office." In the early 1980s, these attitudes
contributed to a 14% acceptance rate for Asians, who are on the average the
best qualified applicants to Brown, compared to the other students who
averaged an acceptance rate of 20%. See Report of CCMI, Brown University,
February 1984. Between 1978 and 1986, there was a 430% increase of Asian
Americans applying to Brown, but the number of these students remained
fairly constant. Grace Tsang, "Equal Access of Asian-Americans", "Yale Law
Journal", January 1989, pp. 659-78.'</p>

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<p>Cal1600, I'd do deny discrimination and will do so until you successfully address points 1-4 in my post below. </p>

<p>Consider four buses waiting at the curb where many many people are waiting. If 80 percent of one group of people not only rush one particular bus but try to claim window seats on the left side, many more individuals are going to be unsuccessful than other groups who have a more distributed pattern.</p>

<p>You can ignore this or you can rage and howl and either way it doesn't matter any more than the King Canute shaking his fist at the tide.</p>

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<p>^^ Yes, those are the rules of the "game" as you call it now. But if you say look at the Economics major at Harvard, and look within that "bus" as you call it, you will see that Asian Americans are accepted with higher SAT scores than other ethnicities within that same Economics major at Harvard. This cannot be explained by your "bus crowding" theory.</p>

<p>The game changes every 5 years. The game was that you had to be a "well rounded" student when I graduated high school in 1995. Along with all my stats i posted elsewhere, I was scouted by the Atlanta Braves in high school, played drums, Asian American leadership organizations, etc... I was extremeley "well rounded". </p>

<p>The fact of the matter is that the emphasis of Asians not being "well rounded" enough had changed to the "diversity of blacks and hispanics at the loss of Asian diversity" theory, and most recently changed into this crowded bus theory that you proposed. </p>

<p>What I come to understand is that the game will always exist, and so will discrimination. And its important for everyone to be aware of that. Asian Americans are over qualified for everything in life. Even the Asian security guard will have to be overqualified for his job, much less the head of the bioengineering dept, or even for a spot in an elite university. Frankly, even at NYU MBA programs, I was more impressed by the Asians there, than the average Columbia MBA student.</p>

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<p>Yes I understand that you are essentially saying that for the rest of our lives, Asian Americans will have to try harder, do better and be more qualified to be on equal footing with everyone else. No matter how much I shake my fist. </p>

<p>I'm glad that finally the truth came out, because that's all I wanted to hear you say.</p>

<p>The Truth.</p>

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<p>Today, I was deferred by Stanford. I was expecting my ASIAN, IMMIGRANT, BORN AND RAISED IN CHINA PARENTS to be disappointed in me. However, the first thing my mom told me and called me several times to tell me was.... that I shouldnt be mad and this was a normal thing in life. My dad later caleld from his work to remind me that college isnt exactly the biggest thing in the world (i always have berkeley) and that i really shouldnt trip about it. however, several of my other Asian friends definitely do not get it the same. Some of them are petrified and scared sh**less by their parents because of their hard academics. For me, this seems to be a trend in a LOT of asian families and whether you like to admit the stereotype, this is happening around the country and the world. Now, why do colleges decide to take kids that are perhaps NOT SO FORCEd by their parents to everything over kids who had their lives dictated from birth by their parents? It is obvious that many many Asian families are very strict and tight on the education and perhaps this IS a reason that colleges are a little tighter and more difficult on Asian Americans. Colleges do NOT want forced students who have no ideas and no identity of their own. I am not stereotyping all asians, however, there is a VAST majority of upper-middle class Asian Americans who end up pushing their children to this level. Go Bears!</p>

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<p>"there is a VAST majority of upper-middle class Asian Americans who end up pushing their children to this level"</p>

<p>i highly doubt that.</p>

180

<p>Haha, my dad was saying last night that it's not physically possible for the Asian continent to output THAT many natural violin/tennis stars. Much of it is forced.</p>