<p>Here is another kid with similar fate as Jian Li in his application to MIT.</p>
<p>If you are interested, go to the following link:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=261938&highlight=jian%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=261938&highlight=jian</a></p>
<p>"...discusses the cases of Harrison Frist and Nicole Bush, who were admitted with far lower SAT scores than the norm for Princeton and than other more talented students."</p>
<p>Doesn't matter. That is still limited information. Unless Mr. Golden had access to the full range of applications & their enclosures, he still does not have a complete picture of admissions decisions. Decisions are made both with regard to particular side-by-sides and with regard to the entire college class, previous recent history of similar admits, goals THIS YEAR of the college, needs this year of the college (including financial, including expected donations which will provide scholarships to needy students of all races, etc.) Piecemeal information never tells the story in this kind of a multi-layered process. And I have so little respect for Mr. Golden, given the excerpts that I have already read, that I have no interest in reading further. He is not a scholar, not a very thorough investigator, & is out to make a buck on sensationalism. His conclusions do not hold from the so-called array of facts which he has chosen to assemble.</p>
<p>"If public dollars pay for Princeton to develop top research facilities, it makes sense to admit by merit a wide range of top scholars who will make use of those facilities."</p>
<p>Princeton already does admit by merit a wide range of top scholars who will make use of those facilities. And a huge number of those top scholars are East Asian and South Asian. Many of these are also accepted by Harvard & Yale. Many of the double & triple-acceptees choose H. Sorry, you can't pin those decisions on P. Again, you do not have access to the Accepteds pile. You have access to the currently enrolled students & their ethnicities. That does not tell the story. </p>
<p>"But the preferences that elite universities use actually hurt many kinds of kids."</p>
<p>A little dramatic are we? The elite universities prefer extremely capable students. And they get them. And there are many fine universities where the education is equally good but those institutions don't carry the nick-name "elite." "Many kinds of kids" who do not get into HYP get into equally good alternatives. If those students choose not to apply to U of Chicago, to Georgetown, to the LAC's, to the top publics, that's not the fault of the "elite universities."</p>
<p>One other thing: People with broken English who speak in a monotone do get admitted to HYP & S. I've met them. But these U's also admit the same style (& ethnicity) of academic who does not speak in broken English or a monotone. As I've posted many times before, the top U's can have their choice on a full platter. They're the buyers in a buyer's market. That's the way it works.</p>
<p>
[quote]
why is people keep saying "perfect score mean nothing... if that is all you are"? I personally believe that it is the same kind of talent and effort needed there as in every other area.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It does. For high-end colleges, however, you're competing with applicants that all have the same kind of talent and effort needed to get a great SAT score, astounding GPA, and outstanding honors. Applicants will definitely have to have some sort of edge to make them especially oustanding at the admissions office.</p>
<p>I think the colleges that rejected Jian probably had good reason to do so. Sure, I don't know the kid's application of his abilities, but the fact that he got accepted into CalTech gives me the impression that he's another "stereotypical" Asian that has crazy math/science skills. I'm pretty sure that HYPS and other competitive colleges get enough of those kind of applicants. So in a way, yeah, it does have to do with the fact that he's Asian; I get the feeling that if he were Hispanic or African-American, he might've gotten in. Still, it has less to do with actually being Asian and more to do with being Asian in a very stereotypical sense.</p>
<p>Stereotypes may be offending, but they're really just facts taken out of context.</p>
<p>kemikaruu, i would like to qualify your post by taking out the allusions to him being a stereotypical asian applicant, and just say he is a very stereotypical applicant to a lot of top colleges (speculation I admit, but...) it seems that competition for math-science-y people at top Universities is steeper than for english-y people because english-y people more often apply to liberal arts colleges. Maybe its just from seeing this board a lot, but it seems like tons of HYPMS applicants are math-science-y (and therefore Jian Li would have to have something to make him stand out more)</p>
<p>Northstarmom:</p>
<p>By the same logic you have presented concerning the disadvantage African-Americans have had in the past in college admissions, I could argue that women ought to be paid more than men in this present day, simply because they have been disadvantaged in the past, with far lower wages for the same work. It's flawed logic: two wrongs don't make it right. Having more qualified, Asian students being turned down in favor of formerly disadvantaged African-Americans isn't fair.</p>
<p>The best thing is to be fair to all applicants and to ignore race. Different races does not guarantee diversity anyway.</p>
<p>I'm all for minority rights, and the smallest minority is the individual. Not a race.</p>
<p>^! Great quote. That is absolutely correct. </p>
<p>Also props to Silvykins, that totally makes sense.</p>
<p>The way I see it:</p>
<p>Princeton must have the world's best application reviewers given that they knew to reject someone who is the kind of person to sue a college that rejected him.</p>
<p>I mean, seriously guys... Who does that? Everyone knows that many of these Ivy Leagues they aren't just looking for "perfect scores" but rather for perfect leaders.</p>
<p>"I'm all for minority rights, and the smallest minority is the individual. Not a race."</p>
<p>Exactly. While I do think that Jian Li's suing Princeton showed a little bit of immaturity, it's pretty hard to understand why certain minorities seem to get special privileges in the admissions process. For example, scholarships abound for African-American and Hispanic students, yet no such minority scholarship or award is given to a high achieving Asian American, or recent Caucasian immigrant. </p>
<p>While I'm all for giving minorities an opportunity to succeed, I just find it disheartening that some schools may give a student a 'leg up' on admission JUST because of their race.</p>
<p>Justifying such programs with prior injustices to African Americans and Hispanics is ludicrous. Granted, the prior injustices done to many minorities by universities are atrocious, but the students angling for admissions never had to, as mentioned earlier in the thread, 'go to a shorter school than white children' or 'were denied admission due to race,' so why should one benefit from harms not done to themselves?</p>
<p>It is simply wrong to give somebody a leg up (or down) on admissions due to race - it's called RACISM. And last I checked it wasn't condoned in this country.</p>
<p>Forgive me if I seem like I am ranting (I'm Asian Indian), but I just feel that it is wrong if admissions are not need-blind and favor some races over the other. Universities are for higher education and should admit the most qualified students. If that is determined by essays and academic statistics, etc., then admissions are perfectly fair, and nobody has a right to be a sore loser. But if a factor in admissions in something so trivial and discriminating as race, then there is a big problem.</p>
<p>As Ernie H. stated, the smallest minority is the individual - what they do should qualify them for admissions, not what race they happened to be born into.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For example, scholarships abound for African-American and Hispanic students, yet no such minority scholarship or award is given to a high achieving Asian American, or recent Caucasian immigrant.
[/quote]
what about the scholarship available at Penn State that is only offered to Polish applicants? (and in my $ search, i have come across many scholarships designated for Asian American applicants)</p>
<p>..............</p>
<p>sheesh, everyone pulls the race-card nowadays... :p (shame, shame Jian Li)</p>
<p>Is arguing that Chinese immigrants are genetically superior to other Chinese really a legitimate argument?</p>
<p>
[quote]
For example, scholarships abound for African-American and Hispanic students, yet no such minority scholarship or award is given to a high achieving Asian American, or recent Caucasian immigrant.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not quite. Here's just one example of a scholarship for Korean Americans:</p>
<p>Here are some more Asian scholarship opportunities from OCA (by the way you can still apply for some of these, some have deadlines in end of March and in April)</p>
<p>OCA</a> NATIONAL WEBSITE - Scholarships</p>
<p>
[quote]
OCA is a national organization dedicated to advancing the social, political, and economic well-being of Asian Pacific Americans in the United States.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Who is included under the term of "Asian Pacific Islander American" ?</p>
<p>Asian Pacific Islander American ethnic groups includes persons having origin from Asia and/or Pacific Islands, Asian includes persons having origins in any of the original people of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, but not limited to: Bangladeshi, Cambodian, Chinese, Filipino, Hmong, Indian, Indonesian, Japanese, Korean, Lao, Laotian (including Khmu, Lahu, Mien, ThaiDam and other ethnic groups from Laos), Malaysian, Nepalese, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Thai and Vietnamese (including Montagnards and Khemer Khong). Pacific Islander includes persons having origins in any of the original people of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands, including, but not limited to: Carolinian, Chamorro/Guamanian, Fijian, Maori, Marshallese, Micronesian, Native Hawaiian, Palauan, Samoan, and Tahitian. Citizens of the Republic of the Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and the Republic of Palau are eligible.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>^ Those scholarships are from Asians for Asians. Most other URM scholarships aren't from the URM group itself, but from the institutions or other private organization mainly run by Caucasian. </p>
<p>Frankly, I don't care how people or organizations spend their money (it's theirs for a reason), but it is obviously clear that scholarships for URM (non-Asian) vastly outnumbered those for them. In fact, even scholarships that are for all minority students (e.g. Gates Millennium Scholarship), the vast majority of recipients are African-Americans. Is it fair in term of merit wise? That's questionable, but again, it's their money to do what they want. </p>
<p>If I made a few billion dollars in my lifetime and decided to endow a massive scholarship for Asians only, I can, and no one can criticize me for it. </p>
<p>And for those who say there aren't any scholarship for Asians, you don't have to look far, it's called a merit-scholarship.</p>
<p>I don't see how this is any different from any number of kids out there who have applied to different schools. We all know that 2400 is no guarantee, particularly if you have nothing else (don't know if he does or does not). But getting into Cal tech and Yale should be enough I would think. How many students get into all of HPYS anyway? Not many.</p>
<p>I was able to track down the article. While it does not say directly, I did not get a sense that Mr. Li has more than the high scores, which puts him in the pack with a ton of other kids. I know caucasian women with 2400 that have been wait listed this year.</p>
<p>Unless Yale's holistic admissions is inferior to that of Princeton, I would imagine that a Yale acceptee "has more than the high scores."</p>
<p>
<p>Those scholarships are from Asians for Asians. Most other URM scholarships aren't from the URM group itself, but from the institutions or other private organization mainly run by Caucasian.
</p>
<p>Actually, these scholarships are for Asians that ARE funded by "private organizations mainly run by Caucasians":</p>
<p>OCA-UPS Gold Mountain Scholarship
OCA-VERIZON Scholarship
OCA-AXA Achievement Scholarship</p>
<p>Scholarships</a> for High School Seniors</p>
<p>USPAACC-CBS Scholarship
USPAACC-McDONALDS Scholarship
USPAACC-HOME DEPOT Scholarship
USPAACC-PEPSICO Scholarship
USPAACC-VOLVO-For-Life Scholarship
USPAACC-PAUL SHEARMAN ALLEN & ASSOCIATES Scholarship
USPAACC-TELAMON Scholarship
USPAACC-PHILIP MORRIS USA Scholarship
USPAACC-DARDEN Restaurants Scholarship
USPAACC-SODEXHO Scholarship</p>
<p>Asian organizations such as OCA, USPAACC, and APIASF partner with corporate sponsors to provide scholarships for their communities in the same way Hispanic and African American organizations do.</p>
<p>Think about if it was a UMR who was rejected with those statistics.</p>
<p>Imagine the outrage of the community and imagine how many people would accuse the school of racism.</p>
<p>Wow, talk about a sore loser.</p>
<p>It's ridiculous that just because this guy got rejected, they're trying to claim discrimination. White kids can't get in with a 2400, and we're not calling discrimination on that one.</p>
<p>Clearly, if the kid got rejected from all of the top-tier schools, there was something lacking in the application, or he's just unlucky.</p>