Asian student filing complaint against Princeton for discrimination-WSJ article

Applying to College
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<p>"does anyone on this board doubt that a top notch Asian candidate (or even white for that matter) may have been turned away to give a spot to Harrison Frist..." (etc.)</p>

<p>I doubt it, or at least have reason to question it. Neither you nor I have particular information relative to either a Frist relative or a Bush relative vs. another candidate. More likely if it was "against" someone else, it would have been "against" a top-scoring Caucasian Anglo with less $$ than those 2 examples. But generally it is not the way it works that specific candidates compete in this way: that tends to be more the case for 2 or more applicants from one particular high school during one round. Overall, decisions are more broadly-based than that. And for every one of your "3 [anecdotal] examples" of admits based supposedly on donations, I can give you more than 3 examples of specific science-fair "types" (though I don't like categorizing, I'm merely following your own template) who WERE admitted, because I have access to some of that information at one "top" U in question.</p>

<p>(1) The points brought up in your post have been made elsewhere, on this and on many similar threads. They have also been refuted by many posters, including & not including myself.</p>

<p>(2) Disagreement, including strong intellectual disagreement, is not “rancor.” That’s what forums are for: to agree & to disagree. People who find disagreement distasteful should never enter a public forum.</p>

<p>(3) Re: your example of the science fair student. High School Senior versions of precisely the student you describe, are accepted BY THE HUNDREDS by all the top Universities in this country – this year, last year, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 10 years ago. They are not “discriminated against.” They are not belittled. They are not ignored by those U’s. They are not passed over. But I’ll say it again, although it’s been said dozens of times on CC, esp. over the last few weeks: there are too many of those “science fair” (post # 206 ) students for THE MOST POPULAR Universities & colleges to accept UNIVERSALLY. The colleges are not going to increase the existing over-represention at their institutions with this style of student from this ethnic background. They want their institutions to reflect a better DISTRIBUTION of the country and DISTRIBUTION of academic emphasis. So at some point they’re going to “hold the line” at the number of these that they already accept.</p>

<p>(4) This topic would not even be an issue for discussion, were the “type” in question willing to go beyond the “name” institutions for a college education. If fictional & non-fictional “science fair” student were to seriously diversify the college list, to include the science-heavy west coast colleges such as the Claremont colleges, to include many fine universities in this country outside of HYPSM – such as Rice & various Publics, such as U of Chicago, 100% of these students would find challenging & satisfying opportunities for themselves to meet their abilities. In fact, one could argue that a “science fair” student might find in many cases more opportunities in a less high-profile institution. That student may be received as exceptional, as invaluable, as a leader in his (esp.) field, as the recipient of Honors at graduation, as scholarship recipient with a full ride, as recipient of publishing opportunities – all of which leverage said student for an outstanding graduate school leading to a promising career in the field of choice. HYPSM do not have a lock on undergraduate excellence: I say that as the parent of a student at one of those places. Demonstrated excellence is only one factor in an institution’s profile; the other factors leading to visibility have much to do with tradition, reputation, marketing, and even folklore – including the folklore spread by members of one’s nationality and one’s SES & ethnic & geographical group. (Thus, I am including NE upper-middle-class Caucasians here as participants in the spreading of folklore.)</p>

<p>And those of us who disagree with the premise of Jian Li's "complaint" do not necessarily support as "flawless" all of the methods & all of the process of "elite college admissions." One position does not imply the other.</p>

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<p>epiphany, I must say that I am genuinely impressed with the way you phrase your sentences now.</p>

<p>I believe that they are much more neutral than they were just a few weeks ago.</p>

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<p>im asian and i hate the fact that a lot of asians are overachievers and score very high on their sat's. i come from a low income family and i attend a high school where majority are hispanic and african american. (all my friends are hispanic/aa). my chances at top universities= very slim. maybe if i was hispanic/aa i would have a greater chance but thats not the case. ={</p>

<p>i dont blame colleges that reject asians with perfect scores/gpa because most of them do study all day and have no lives.. seriously...</p>

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<p>"i dont blame colleges that reject asians with perfect scores/gpa because most of them do study all day and have no lives.. seriously..."</p>

<p>I think you just hit upon the point that most of the posters on this forum have been trying to refute. You just said that you come from a place that has a majority of hispanic/african americans...are there many asians in your school? If there aren't then I don't see how you can make that assumption that they don't have lives. All Asians, all people do...it's just a matter of what you value in life...If you say that asians don't, then its just a reflection of your own bias and because you cannot or don't want to understand that everyone is different. Asians, or any race for that matter, can't be put into a group. You said yer an asian and you are totally different from "what an asian should be." This is the foundation of where stereotyping comes from...</p>

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<p>oh right, i do have asian friends outside of school. they live in nj.longisland and the ones that live in new york goto bx science and stuy. thank you.</p>

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<p>emory1r, do your hispanic and aa friends do much of studying? If not, do you think they should considering that two Asian giants (India and China) are slowly dominating the world economic scene?<br>
(I am not Asian, btw. But I think Asians have a right to study and improve their lives without being looked down upon.)</p>

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<p>^Totally agree with what's in the parentheses above. I think that's the bottom line. Don't penalize people for being high achievers, and don't make assumptions based on the fact that they are high achievers. Just because some people can't balance work and social life doesn't mean all Asian high achievers can't.</p>

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<p>emory, I'm Indian and though I could possibly fit into what you'd call "high SATs and GPA's", for a college essay I wrote about the passion I put into playing football with my friends. How decidedly Un-Asian is that? And what's it to you if other Asians study and succeed? I'm sorry that you're "stuck with your heritage"....</p>

<p>Sorry If I sound a bit annoyed...it's because I am...This is a forum, and I respect everybody's opinion, and we can say what we want about Jian Li's decision to sue Princeton, but I think that this thread has developed further into an ethnocentric debate, by both Asians and Non-Asians alike...</p>

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<p>"(I am not Asian, btw. But I think Asians have a right to study and improve their lives without being looked down upon.)"</p>

<p>No one's necessarily looking down upon them. Just don't complain about discrimination in college admissions when Asians make up 4% of the population yet over 30% on some college campuses. Colleges have a right to want diversity.</p>

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<p>In response to the below, I am asking an honest question: What stories do you think the media is missing about Asians? You are the one saying that they are being undercovered: So, in specific what do you feel needs to be done?</p>

<p>I'm African American, have a strong journalism background including providing diversity training for some large media companies. I happen to believe that African Americans are not covered well by the media. I can, however, give specifics supporting my opinion.</p>

<p>I am very interested in your thoughts about what stories the media is missing about Asians. Please give me some examples. I am genuinely interested in this subject.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, where I live, Asians literally are 1% of the population.</p>

<p>The only local media story I can remember that was specifically a local Asian story was about the citywide Asian festival. I have seen, however, stories about local people who happen to be Asian such as our city's public administrator, who is quoted regularly in the news. I also recently saw a story about a local professor (who happens to be Asian) who also is a renowned artist and dancer. When Asian-heritage students achieve awards, etc., their achievements are listed as are those of students of other ethnicities. Asian-owned restaurants are regularly reviewed as are other types of restaurants.</p>

<p>Does this suggest to you that the media in my area is missing some important coverage of local Asians?</p>

<p>"For the person who complained that Asians aren't being covered enough: What is not being covered about Asians that you think should be covered? What stories are being missed in your opinion?"</p>

<p>What stories DO you think Asians are being covered in, over than the stereotypical 2400 SAT, computer nerds, Chinatown restaurants????</p>

<p>Northstarmom, I can't but feel you have a VERY STRONG stereotype AND prejudice against Asians based on your extreme lack of knowledge about the race and your superficial generalization of ALL Asians.</p>

<p>I feel deeply offended by the way you post your opinions against Asians, as if we were just a "group" of small eyed and black-haired people who stay home and read books. In fact, Asians ARE ALL DIFFERENT. We come from totally different nations with MANY MANY different beliefs. Some of these beliefs even pose strains within the "Asian race" as you call it. It's like any other race. Just becasue African Americans all LOOK black doesn't mean they don't have different backgrounds that make them unique. Is it fair to say that all African Americans are well-represented by what we see on TV? like in all the rap videos and reality shows??????????? I hope not, for I do not want to base my judgement of them without even knowing some of them. I hope to not judge people at all."</p>

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<p>just kidding, im not asian. i just wanted to see who would take a whack at me</p>

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<p>19382,</p>

<p>The fact remains that there is discrimination against Asians in the admissions process, which has been acknowledged by adcoms before.</p>

<p>Of course colleges have diversity as a goal. That's fine. Many people support this goal. Also fine.</p>

<p>What I find interesting is how some people claim that campuses that have more minorities than whites (Berkeley) or a near 50/50 split (Austin) are not "diverse." Somehow, a university that is overwhelmingly white but does the following:</p>

<ol>
<li>Practices race-sensitive affirmative action</li>
<li>Touts diversity as a goal</li>
</ol>

<p>is considered diverse by the same people.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom,</p>

<p>I'm sorry I took your post wrong. I thought you meant it in a sarcastic way...</p>

<p>I'm glad that you are very interested in stories about Asians. I understand that Asians are only a small percent of the US population, and thus, they may not be covered as extensively as other races who make up more of the population.</p>

<p>But I feel like Asians are not covered as much in stories such as the entertainment and music industry. For example, I know a Japanese singer, Utada Hikaru (you can search her on wikipedia), who, at the age of 16, debuted in Japan and sold over a million copies of her first album. And she's not even the "typical asian singer." She was born in NY, traveled around Europe, and went to Columbia University. When she tried to enter the American music industry in 2004, however, not many people knew her. Some people knew her VOICE, (She sang the song in Kingdom hearts) but not many knew who she was. I feel like this is just one story where an Asian who tried really hard to succeed in what she wants was underrepresented. I'm not saying that she will become the next Britney spears or something, but honestly, it's hard to believe that there is not a single famous Asian singer in the US even though Asians make up 4% of the population. (not a dancer, not anything... other than maybe two actresses and one actor)</p>

<p>I think that is also part of the reason WHY people stereotype Asians. All they see are overachievers with glasses who take BC calc at age 15. But it's not true. There are many who are "not-so-Asian" (even though such word should never exist since itself is a prejudice.) Many play sports (I have Asian friends who are captains of the tennis and swimming teams), others rap (I know someone who is creating a korean rap band with caucasian bandmates), and many do get Cs and don't care about the Ivy League.</p>

<p>Also, having lived in Asian countries myself, I do feel that us people in America only know mostly about Asian food (which is absolutely understandable and normal.) But if you really go to Asian countries, there are many other traditions, as well as new ideas. I'm in a school with many Asians, and our town host Asian festivals as well. I can't but feel that even these festivals mainly concentrate on Asian food and maybe decorations. I understand that it's not reasonable for people to know every little detail about a continent half a globe away, but I just hope people know there IS much more to us... much more in every ethnicity and nationality that most Asians don't even know.</p>

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<p>william hung</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>How are you so sure smart students don't have lives?
It's all about time management! IMO, many students who are high academic acheivers enjoy more of life than probably any other person! what do you define as life? sitting around smoking with your friends/ "chilling" aka. sit around and do nothing!
personally, i have noticed that there are some NERDs, but a majority of good students play a lot of sports, music instrument and many actually are hardcore partier!
I even think that kids like Jian Li isn't just a 2400, he is probably someone who enjoyed life more than most of us here and probably had a lot of ECs b/c he actually enjoyed them not because schools are looking for them!</p>

<p>And i don't think media coverage is a good thing lol, since most times it's about murder and rape LOL, it's a good thing asians aren't covered ;)</p>

<p>But the issue remains, why are asian kids discriminated against? aren't asian students people too? LOL, i mean sure, many of them are under pressure and study, but so what?</p>

<p>This may sound extreme, but what's wrong with NATURAL SELECTION ;), why are schools accepting the weak;)? and i also believe that many minorities actually produce many talents who can attend elite colleges w/o a handicap, so why are adcoms trying to change laws of nature;)?
^^Just a thought :D</p>

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<p>Re: Epiphany's comments</p>

<p>"I doubt it, or at least have reason to question it. Neither you nor I have particular information relative to either a Frist relative or a Bush relative vs. another candidate." </p>

<p>Actually I do. The Price of Admission, by Daniel Golden, specifically discusses the cases of Harrison Frist and Nicole Bush, who were admitted with far lower SAT scores than the norm for Princeton and than other more talented students. I don't have the book with me, or I'd quote the specifics. I suggest you read the book. </p>

<p>"But generally it is not the way it works that specific candidates compete in this way: that tends to be more the case for 2 or more applicants from one particular high school during one round."</p>

<p>My point is, that when you take a mediocre student like Harrison Frist, you have one less spot for a top scholar, a talented artist or musician, or for a URM, as the number of spots in the class are limited. </p>

<p>"And for every one of your "3 [anecdotal] examples" of admits based supposedly on donations, I can give you more than 3 examples of specific science-fair "types" that were admitted..."</p>

<p>Well isn't the point that the science fair types, or the talented debaters, or the fabulous artists, or the wonderful composers or whatever be chosen NOT inferior students with money and connections. Although that is not how it works. The three kids I mentioned are actually kids I really like personally and on one level, I am glad they got into the top notch universities they did. But I can't help but be aware of the connections that they used. It bothers me because I know there are many talented students whose dad can't give seven figures or is on the board of trustees. </p>

<p>I will strongly reiterate the point that this is an issue of Princeton accepting PUBLIC taxpayer dollars. If they don't take the dollars it's not an issue. If public dollars pay for Princeton to develop top research facilities, it makes sense to admit by merit a wide range of top scholars who will make use of those facilities. I also want to make the point though that it is not just about the science fair kids. Do I think that a university should just be populated by science fair kids- no. But the preferences that elite universities use actually hurt many kinds of kids. </p>

<p>For example, athletic preferences actually work against disadvantaged kids. Why? Because the elite universities focus on expensive sports... fencing, crew, polo, tennis, golf that are not easily accessible to economically disadvantaged students... but will cut for example, the wrestling team--- wrestling being a bare bones sport that any one can do with minimal investment. So these preferences actually cut against disadvantaged minority students according to Golden and result in a group of students that are actually "whiter" than the norm (and have lower academic records). </p>

<p>I agree with you, Epiphany, that kids do make the mistake of ignoring many fine public universities that offer a fabulous education, as well as many wonderful private universities. I happen not to believe in the superiority of HYPSM and basically feel these schools are overhyped. But some kids might be concerned about the contention of Daniel Golden that important connections are made in these elite universities that enable students to be placed into prestigious internships in various industries including Wall Street, Capitol Hill etc. I don't personally buy into that point of view but I can understand that a young student might feel his future hinges on getting into Yale (especially if he wants to be President ;)</p>

<p>I think Jian Li has a right to pose his complaint and it will be interesting to see the Commission consider the facts of the case. For all we know, the Commission might rule that Princeton is not discriminating in any way... which no doubt would set many students' minds at ease. Why not let the Commision investigate and decide based on the facts? I am glad I live in a country where a kid like Jian can make a complaint if he feels discriminated against, where women can complain if they are underpaid, where an African American can complain about discrimination in the workplace. </p>

<p>"Disagreement, including strong intellectual disagreement, is not “rancor.” That’s what forums are for: to agree & to disagree. People who find disagreement distasteful should never enter a public forum."</p>

<p>I love a good respectful discussion, debate or even argument and I love hearing and considering others' points of view, but I think it's important to avoid hurting others' feelings. Some previous comments seemed hurtful to me.</p>

<p>Anyway... no one seems to really be commenting on the role of public money?</p>

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<p>"Originally Posted by emory1r
i dont blame colleges that reject asians with perfect scores/gpa because most of them do study all day and have no lives.. seriously..."</p>

<p>That is such BS. I'm personally offended. I have a much better life than you, all I need to do is read your posts to know that.</p>

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<p>yep, all you have to do is read my posts</p>

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<p>"Originally Posted by emory1r
i dont blame colleges that reject asians with perfect scores/gpa because most of them do study all day and have no lives.. seriously..."</p>

<p>i dont blame colleges that accept dumbass with lots of money and extreme anthletes who run the country's economy in the future.</p>

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<p>He said he was joking to get a rise out of people. It was a dumb comment, ignore it.</p>