Asians and College Prestige.

College Search & Selection
301

<p>
[quote]
Nobody, not even privileged whites, has a "right" to go to Yale.

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<p>But nobody call them obsessive about Ivies.
Point was why call Asian obsessive about Ivies solely because they are ASIAN. I know it is very difficult for middle America to digest the fact that someone living among them are obsessive about going to Ivies.
But it is a changing society and we have to learn to accpet that there are American middle class people who have obsessions that used to be associated only with American Elite Whites.</p>

302

<p>"we have to learn to accpet that there are American middle class people who have obsessions that used to be associated only with American Elite Whites."</p>

<p>Call me sheltered. I have yet to meet a single white middle class family whose SINGULAR focus on Ivy-admission begins to compare with the level of activity directed at that effort by asian families who have stated that as their goal.</p>

<p>Or to put it another way, I have yet to see that focus, in a white middle class family, accompanied by a sense of disastrous consequences if that goal is not attained. Is it all rhetoric, or what? (Do you believe yourselves?) Why do so many people on cc get the distinct impression that the Asian students (or their parents, or both) regard an Ivy admission ticket as their sole path to extreme success in this country? You would think that Ivy admission is the only path to a career, to graduate school, to a good marriage, to owning property, to any other measure of success.</p>

<p>I've asked this question often on cc, yet no Asian has answered it, student or parent: Articulate what you think will happen if you are not admitted to an Ivy. Not, what other college you will go to; rather, what will happen to your future, immediate and/or long-term. (And that "happen" can be anything: my life is over; my parents will hate me; I will consider myself a loser, whatever.)</p>

303

<p>^ Asian here, and I've never met another Asian who regarded Ivies as the singular path to success, or any white people for that matter, but I imagine that is mostly because I lived in KS and CA for the past year.</p>

<p>"I've asked this question often on cc, yet no Asian has answered it, student or parent: Articulate what you think will happen if you are not admitted to an Ivy."</p>

<p>What exactly are you trying to ask with that question?</p>

304

<p>What exactly I am "trying" to ask is what I did ask. It is embedded in my post. It is asked because of the palpable sense of impending doom expressed if the Ivy admission is not achieved. Such a sense implies the need to ask the question: "What you do imagine will happen?" (If nothing disastrous can be articulated or imagined, the expression of desperation is unrealistic & unnecessary.)</p>

305

<p>I still don't understand why it's significant that specifically Asians haven't answered that question, considering if you're trying to prove that nothing disastrous will happen if you don't get into an Ivy, no one, no matter what race, would have any fully justified reason for their desperation.</p>

306

<p>
[quote]
Call me sheltered. I have yet to meet a single white middle class family whose SINGULAR focus on Ivy-admission begins to compare with the level of activity directed at that effort by asian families who have stated that as their goal.

[/quote]
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<p>That was the point. There is no white middle class family with such obsession. But the point I raised that the Asian middle class family in America actually is not middle class families they would have been elite class back in their countries. And the obsessions just don't go away by moving to a different country. American white middle class was not exposed to American white Elite class but got exposed to Asian Elite class as by virtue of their move to US they fell into middle class here for at least one generation.
Hence the notion that only Asians are the obsessive ones about Ivies. But the obsession about Ivies has always been there in US in the Elite class but Asian has bought it down to US middle class.</p>

<p>I hope I made my point clear now.</p>

307

<p>because, Charisma, as I've explained 3 times now, the white middle class that POIH claims is also "obsessed" never does express a sense of desperation combined with impending doom if that goal is not reached. That is, in my experience anyway, limited to those of East Asian and South Asian identity, among those who DO express that, and of course that's not true of all Asians, by any means. </p>

<p>I'm not "trying to prove" anything. I'm asking those who express that desperation to prove to others, who read their posts, why Ivy admission is so essential, to the point that they will go and have gone to extreme lengths to achieve that goal: from spending endless hours on cc comparing chances & records, from retaking SAT tests with excellent score results, multiple times, from going completely ballistic about Affirm.Action as if they are mainly competing with the few qualified URM's who apply to the few Ivies which practice AA, etc.</p>

308

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I've asked this question often on cc, yet no Asian has answered it, student or parent: Articulate what you think will happen if you are not admitted to an Ivy.

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<p>I've stated this before and reiterate it now that my D needs to be in a position to have a good shot at top schools admission. End result doesn't matter as it is not guaranteed.
I'm confident that if she has a good shot at top schools then she will do well in life irrespective of what ever college she end up attending.</p>

309

<p>And I agree, POIH, that you have expressed this sentiment in your post 308 in the past, on CC. But this is not the pattern in dozens of other posters (mostly students) of the variety that I mention. Among them, there is <em>not</em> the "confidence that they will do well in life irrespective of what ever college they end up attending."</p>

<p>So if these other posters do NOT mean what they say, they should stop saying it.</p>

310

<p>"But the point I raised that the Asian middle class family in America actually is not middle class families they would have been elite class back in their countries."</p>

<p>Yes, the middle class in America would be rich in some Asian countries, but many Asian immigrants that move to America were not "elite" before they moved here, for ex. my mother was upper-middle class and my dad was dirt poor. People generally do not move from a country where they are "elite" to a country where they suddenly become middle class. The Asian "elite" generally send their kids to be educated in the US, but after college, they usually return to where ever they're from.</p>

<p>"I'm asking those who express that desperation to prove to others, who read their posts, why Ivy admission is so essential, to the point that they will go and have gone to extreme lengths to achieve that goal:"</p>

<p>Yes, but that in and of itself does not in any way show that Asians are more desperate to get into Ivies, only that desperate people have no reasonable justification for why they are desperate.</p>

<p>"from spending endless hours on cc comparing chances & records, from retaking SAT tests with excellent score results, multiple times, from going completely ballistic about Affirm.Action as if they are mainly competing with the few qualified URM's who apply to the few Ivies which practice AA, etc."</p>

<p>Endless hours on CC, ballistic about AA, congrats, that's me and I could give a **** about Ivies. These are hardly traits limited to people who want to get into Ivies (except perhaps the retaking of very good scores).</p>

311

<p>Yeah whoever said that about Asian middle class being rich in homecountries needs to stop being so shortsighted and arrogant. A lot of Asian parents immigrated to the US primarily for the EDUCATION because they were POOR in their respective homelands. This impetus for immigrating also serves its purpose in pushing their children to excel. The economic status now of the Asian middle class might make them "rich" or w/e, but that was never their foundation when coming here. A lot of the asian student families at NYC's specialized high schools never were "elite" in any way.</p>

312

<p>I find it funny when people are just like "I want to go to a prestigious Ivy League school but I don't know *** to major in!"</p>

313

<p>
[quote]
Yeah whoever said that about Asian middle class being rich in homecountries needs to stop being so shortsighted and arrogant. A lot of Asian parents immigrated to the US primarily for the EDUCATION because they were POOR in their respective homelands. This impetus for immigrating also serves its purpose in pushing their children to excel. The economic status now of the Asian middle class might make them "rich" or w/e, but that was never their foundation when coming here. A lot of the asian student families at NYC's specialized high schools never were "elite" in any way.

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<p>It is stupendously wrong. I always pointed out the immigration of 1990s brought in people who were very well off in their respective countries to begin with and came to US because of globalization. That is why many can move in and out more easily than their previous generation immigrants.
You have been exposed to immigrants in NY who have come via family immigration route. You need to come to San Jose Bay area to see the new generation Asians who moved in during the 1990s. </p>

<p>It will take time for most of US to digest it but it is true. That is why you see so many Asian at the Ivies and that is why they are more obsessed.
Immigrant who are poor to begin with spend most of their time getting into the mainstream and won't have time to think of sending children to Ivies.
Only handful of those who can get full scholarship will ever think of applying.
But with so many tuition paying Asian at Ivies is the indication that their parents were not poor to begin with.</p>

314

<p>"You need to come to San Jose Bay area to see the new generation Asians who moved in during the 1990."</p>

<p>I more or less live in the San Jose Bay area (lemme guess, Cupertino?). A decent portion of the immigrants may have been educated and middle class (which is why they're educated) but they were NOT "elite" in their home countries, or else they would have stayed there rather than coming to America where they're only middle class, seriously who would chose to move somewhere where they suddenly become drastically more poor. And even if they were elite, what is it exactly that would that make them more likely to seek Ivies over a poor immigrant that eventually acheived the same level of success as an "elite"? So how do you explain why Asians in NYC, which you characterized not as "elite", have the same or likely greater "obsession" with the Ivies?</p>

<p>"Immigrant who are poor to begin with spend most of their time getting into the mainstream and won't have time to think of sending children to Ivies."</p>

<p>No one ever said that they were poor, the majority is not now, but the point is that most before they immigrated were either poor or middle class, not "elite."</p>

315

<p>I think that I differ with ParentofIvyHope's opinion only slightly. POIH states that immigrants in the 90s were already well-off in their own countries before immigrating here, and were thus able to return to their respective parent countries at any time. </p>

<p>My father tells me that the immigrants in the 90s were not well off until they came to America, where they either got their degrees or started immediately working. They then amassed a decent amount of money and decided to return to Asia. He says that in America it is very difficult to become a top executive; one can, with hard work and dedication, ascend to middle management in a relatively short amount of time and live a comfortable middle class lifestyle. But becoming a real boss is very difficult, and many of my father's peers are returning to Asia for jobs that will grant them more power (even for less money). Basically, the immigrants from Asia came, made decent money, and had a choice to make: more money or more power? The people who returned to Asia chose more power. Countries like China, which has had significant brain drain in the past, are beginning to lure American-educated Chinese back with lower economic barriers and an upsurge in growth. </p>

<p>Anecdote: My father's friend came to America for undergraduate in SUNY Buffalo. She then went to Wharton for her MBA. She made a very decent amount of money (enough to buy a house and start a family at age 30). She's returning to China this year. Why? Because she was a middle-class worker here, but recently got an offer to become the CEO for a small company in China. She will make significantly less money than she would here, but will own an entire company for herself, placing her in the upper class.</p>

316

<p>Seems like regional experiences are fostering our differing opinions. I only argue this out of what I've seen and read. I wish I could find a decent article on Chinese immigration (I'm sure there're a lot)</p>

317

<p>
[quote]
In support I will provide the following reasoning:
1. Ivies exist much before the Asian started getting to these colleges at large number (in the last 6 - 8 years).
2. The whole notion, of the Ivies and the select few that attend it, was created by American White.
3. If you go around all the private prep schools there are more American White that attend these school than anyone else and the only obsession of the students there is to get into Ivies.

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<p>And let’s not forget the high % of Jews at the Ivies (as high as 40% at some places like Columbia) before the quota system was put into place.</p>

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That doesn't really demonstrate much other than the fact that Ivies are, by design, elite white institutions. What evidence does it provide that Asians are less interested in Ivies?

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<p>And they are elite b/c of…? </p>

<p>No one is saying that Asians are any less interested, but rather that they are NOT the only group (and it really differs with regard to certain Asian ethnicities; whether they are recent immigrants or 3rd, 4th gen; whether they are working class or professional class; etc.)</p>

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What gets interesting, however, is whether or not whites today are, on average, less or more concerned with their children attending Ivies or Ivy-equivalents.

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<p>Whites from affluent suburbs (Bronxville, NY; Woodside, CA; Winnetka, IL; etc.) and ritzy NYC neighborhoods (and those of other cities) certainly are (not to mention that the Jewish make-up of the Ivy student body is self-explanatory).</p>

<p>
[quote]
But I don't know that it's an "obsession" with elite whites. It's more of an expectation. Let's face it, if you have legacy at a top private, you're in pretty good shape to begin with. Elite whites, especially the "well-rounded athletic types," don't obsess about getting into top universities. They expect to get into top universities.</p>

<p>Elite Whites tend to see them as just another feature of growing up. You are a Bush, so you go to Yale. And so on.

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<p>For many “bluebloods”, it’s a family disgrace if a child doesn’t get into an Ivy. As for the children of affluent, but hardly “rich” parents (parents work as professionals as opposed to having a trust fund), the competition to get into an Ivy or equivalent school is intense (most whites attending the top Unis are from the latter and not the former).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Call me sheltered. I have yet to meet a single white middle class family whose SINGULAR focus on Ivy-admission begins to compare with the level of activity directed at that effort by asian families who have stated that as their goal.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You ARE sheltered. Happy?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Or to put it another way, I have yet to see that focus, in a white middle class family, accompanied by a sense of disastrous consequences if that goal is not attained. Is it all rhetoric, or what? (Do you believe yourselves?) Why do so many people on cc get the distinct impression that the Asian students (or their parents, or both) regard an Ivy admission ticket as their sole path to extreme success in this country? You would think that Ivy admission is the only path to a career, to graduate school, to a good marriage, to owning property, to any other measure of success.</p>

<p>I've asked this question often on cc, yet no Asian has answered it, student or parent: Articulate what you think will happen if you are not admitted to an Ivy. Not, what other college you will go to; rather, what will happen to your future, immediate and/or long-term. (And that "happen" can be anything: my life is over; my parents will hate me; I will consider myself a loser, whatever.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Gee, why do so many Jews aspire to attend Ivy League universities (or what about the children of black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean)?</p>

<p>And while the white working-middle class may not be “obsessed” (many just don't see it as an attainable goal, just as many working class Cambodians, Hmong, Viets, etc. don't), affluent/professional whites certainly are (there’s a reason why white parents move to places like Wilmette, Il, so their children can attend New Trier High which, like other top suburban schools, as well as private/prep schools, touts the no. of students they send to the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, NU, Duke, UChicago, etc.</p>

<p>Btw, there are plenty of Asians who are not obsessed – which is why there are high % of Asian students at schools like - 22% SUNY/Stony Brook; 17% UTexas.; 22% Rutgers; 20% Cooper Union; 44% UC Irvine; 13% Maryland; etc.</p>

<p>Think about it this way - there are hardly enough Asians in this country to keep all the businesses geared towards getting kids into the Ivies or other top schools busy, much less afloat (gee, I wonder who keeps them in business?).</p>

<p>Btw, epiph – Asian students make up 27% of Wellesley. Now, is that high percentage due to Wellesley being LESS interested in “well-rounded” students than the Ivies?</p>

318

<p>
[quote]
I find it funny when people are just like "I want to go to a prestigious Ivy League school but I don't know *** to major in!"

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<p>I think it's perfectly fine to not know your major in undergrad when you get there. How can you know what you want with your life at 17 or 18?</p>

<p>
[quote]
And they are elite b/c of…? </p>

<p>No one is saying that Asians are any less interested, but rather that they are NOT the only group (and it really differs with regard to certain Asian ethnicities; whether they are recent immigrants or 3rd, 4th gen; whether they are working class or professional class; etc.)

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<p>Of course. I'm just playing devil's advocate, really, and trying to get MoIH to flesh out a better argument. I don't think that Asians are any more or less obsessed. I think that they're the same as most Jewish immigrants of the late 19th and early 20th century. Top universities mean social mobility. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Whites from affluent suburbs (Bronxville, NY; Woodside, CA; Winnetka, IL; etc.) and ritzy NYC neighborhoods (and those of other cities) certainly are (not to mention that the Jewish make-up of the Ivy student body is self-explanatory).

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<p>Are what? More concerned or less concerned? </p>

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[quote]
For many “bluebloods”, it’s a family disgrace if a child doesn’t get into an Ivy. As for the children of affluent, but hardly “rich” parents (parents work as professionals as opposed to having a trust fund), the competition to get into an Ivy or equivalent school is intense (most whites attending the top Unis are from the latter and not the former).

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<p>Agreed. But the former are the power players and probably the group that has the least to worry about. The latter group, I suspect, still takes a different path to Ivy admission than most Asians. I think what's screwing over most Asians at admission time is the too-heavy focus on academics. Ivies don't want academics. They want leaders. Chicago, on the other hand...</p>

319

<p>Please keep posts on-topic and polite.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

320

<p>
[quote]
Are what? More concerned or less concerned?

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I would say equally concerned as Asian families who live in such areas (not surprising b/c very similar socio-economically).</p>

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I think what's screwing over most Asians at admission time is the too-heavy focus on academics. Ivies don't want academics. They want leaders. Chicago, on the other hand...

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<p>So Wellesley and Stanford (the % of Asian enrollment at Stanford went up after it admitted it had a bias) aren’t interested in leaders?</p>

<p>And how would these schools be able to tell who the leaders are as opposed to the non-leaders from sheets of paper?</p>

<p>And interesting enough, the % of Jewish admits (as well as Asian) went down at Princeton after it revamped its application process into a more “holistic” one – does this mean Princeton is more interested in “leaders” than its Ivy colleagues?</p>

<p>Plus, there are more Asian applicants who are socialized no different from the typical (white) suburbanite (“Americanized”, “assimilated”, “whitewashed”) than there are Jewish applicants – and yet, the % of Asians overall, lag significantly behind that of Jews.</p>