<p>oh, ok. i wasn't sure if that was correct, but a current student told me that. thanks for correcting it.</p>
<p>Isn't that what Asians want, moolah?</p>
<p>Yes, I'm Asian too</p>
<p>
[quote]
oh, ok. i wasn't sure if that was correct, but a current student told me that. thanks for correcting it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I wouldn't doubt that UCLA may feel 60% Asian, especially in the eyes of a non-Asian student.</p>
<p>If one is not a member of group X, and group X is two out of every five, it's pretty easy for one to think that group X is three out of every five.</p>
<p>The only thing that kinda irks me is how many asians form a clique. They will bask in their asian-ness, and talk about asian things. I'm not sure if it's because they are trying to retain their culture, or what, but it does seem like its hard to hang out with them when they are moving as one large group.</p>
<p>Anyway, why does it bother you if these asians want to go to HYPSM or wherever? Let them do their thing, and you can do yours! Yeah I know it can be irritating when that's all they want to talk about, but then choose different friends! ****ing heavily about the system won't help, because the system isn't going to change. No seriously, this isn't like a big civil rights movement, nobody honestly gives a damn what teenage asians are talking about in the hall ways, and really *the system isn't going to change, so just move on!</p>
<p>And yes I'm Indian.</p>
<p>I happen to attend one of those schools, and I can guarantee you that very few students, let alone Asian students, really enjoy blabbering about where they go to school. (I'm sure there are a few arrogant jerks out there but I certainly don't know any)</p>
<p>I don't see whats the big deal about asian parents and prestige. Just put it in perspective: the fact is, even if you're under a lot of pressure, high school is not that difficult compared to the things you'll have to deal with later in life. </p>
<p>My parents put a lot of pressure on me to go to a top college. Same with many of my friends. But I wouldn't say that we were unhappier than other kids our age. We still had time to hang out, play DoTA, do all the things that high school kids do, only we also learned how to work hard, manage our time, and deal with pressure. These are things that you're going to have to learn later in life anyway, either in college or at your first job. </p>
<p>I'm working at a summer internship and I can tell you it's much more difficult than anything I've had to do at school. I'm stuck in a cubicle 8 hours a day, 40 hours per week. I'm doing fairly tedius work, and there's a lot that I don't understand, especially since I'm programming in a language that I'm not too familiar with. However, I've been able to get a lot more done than many of the other interns here, despite the fact that I'm a graduating high school senior and they're all college students already. It's not really because I'm smarter then the other interns, but because I have a better work ethic that I can do that.</p>
<p>And if you look at it from the parent's point of view, it's not that unreasonable to expect their children to work hard. Many of these Asian parents are immigrants, and had to deal with language issues, adjust to a new culture, be separated from family and friends, etc. Compared to all the hardships they suffered to get here, are they really asking that much of their children? After all, one of the major factors in their decision to immigrate was for the sake of getting their children a better education. As several people have posted, they just want their kids to take full advantage of the opportunities avaliable in the US.</p>
<p>Obviously there are cases where people take it too far, but in the vast majority of cases, like all other parents, they just want what's best for their children, and most of the time it is beneficial.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As usual, k&s is rambling, combining multiple topics not related to the OP & responding to multiple posters within single replies. </p>
<p>Actually, I'm not sheltered. It was an ironic remark. I've also never met anyone else, of any race, who has encountered the level of single-minded, artificial panic around Ivy admission, that they and I have seen in many Asian students. I never said all. And I'm quite aware of enrollments of Asians in many LAC's, many 2nd tier schools, many publics, yada yada. Not surprising, given the fairly widespread population of Asians (& increasingly so) throughout the States, esp. more recently. Not a single middle class white student I've known has ever spoken with the hyperbolic intensity that exists regularly on cc by students who self-identify as Asian.</p>
<p>And still, none of those students has revealed what exactly will be happening to them personally if the Ivy goal is not reached.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>LOL!!! As usual, I see that epiph has resorted to ad hominem attacks, since she rarely has anything substantial to support her assumptions/biases (btw, I’m sorry if my posts are too difficult for you to follow, but no one else seems to be having any problems doing so).</p>
<p>Yes, epiph, you are SHELTERED b/c you base your opinions/biases on **nothing but anecdotal “evidence”<a href="not%20different%20from%20what%20white%20nationalists%20do%20on%20sites%20like%20“stormfront”">/b</a>.</p>
<p>And I’ve never met anyone (of any race) who has single-mindedly REPEATED over and over on posts about how Asians aren’t discriminated against in admissions (nevermind that schools like Berkeley and Stanford have admitted to as much) b/c Asian applicants aren’t “well-rounded”, etc. (well, there was also adofficer – but his credibility vanished when he stated that Asian applicants, overall, didn’t face discrimination at the Ivies, but that Jewish applicants did).</p>
<p>While I have stated numerous facts to support my position, you, otoh, have offered nothing but conjecture based on your obvious biases.</p>
<p>You: Asian applicants aren’t discriminated against.</p>
<p>Me: Yes they are - since they have LOWER admit rates despite having higher academic stats.</p>
<p>You: But colleges have a “holistic” admissions standard and are looking for “well-rounded” students; Asians simply don’t have the ECs that colleges are looking for.</p>
<p>Me: Uhh, studies have shown that the ECs of Asian applicants are no different from their white counterparts.</p>
<p>You: Well, Asians just aren’t as committed or passionate about their ECs (note how I actually have FACTS to back up my arguments, while you have nothing but conjecture).</p>
<p>Me: How would you know if Asians are less committed or passionate about their ECs (plus, an Asian applicant isn’t going to write about how he/she is less passionate about their activities, even if it were true – which it is not)? </p>
<p>You: No answer (to my question).</p>
<pre><code> (Change argument) - Asians just don’t have varied interests; they are just academically focused and schools want variety in interests and Asian applicants don’t fit that mold – after all, look how they are obsessed with attending an Ivy League school.
</code></pre>
<p>Me: So then why do Ivy League schools salivate over children of African and Caribbean immigrants (who are vastly overrepresented within the black student population – making up 40% of the black student body) who are also stereotyped as texture-less academic “grinds"?</p>
<p>Plus, many Asians (particularly those who are commonly referred to as “whitewashed” or “bananas”) are “no different” from their white counterparts with regard to variety in interests - so, I don’t see how the “variety” in interests argument holds.</p>
<p>You: No answer.</p>
<p>Me: So why did the Jewish admit rate at Princeton go down when Princeton adopted a more holistic admissions standard and why are there more Asian than Jewish students at Princeton? (Princeton, arguably, has always had a more “holistic” standard than Harvard, Yale, Columbia, etc.). </p>
<p>Plus, if you look at the actual nos. (instead of relying on unreliable anecdotes), Asians are hardly obsessed with the Ivy League (well, maybe a certain % are, but that’s no different than certain groups of WASPs, Jews, black immigrants, etc.).</p>
<p>You: No answer.</p>
<pre><code> (Update: you actually have just responded to this question – but unfortunately, it’s no more fact-based than any of your other assertions – and like your other statements based on nothing but conjecture, it is, in its face – ridiculous.)
</code></pre>
<p>epiph -
[quote]
Leadership is not nearly as big a factor for Princeton admissions as it is for Harvard. That's also been historically true.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>(LOL!! If anything, quite the opposite is true.)</p>
<pre><code> (Change argument) - Well, schools are interested in having a diverse student body.
</code></pre>
<p>Me: If the Ivy colleges are so interested in “diversity”, then why are 25% of the student body Jewish (as high as 30% at some Ivy schools) – a group which is much less diverse than Asians (which encompasses many nations, cultures, languages, religions, etc.).</p>
<p>In fact, two leading academics have stated as such.</p>
<p>
[quote]
One leading critic of bringing affirmative action back to Berkeley is David A. Hollinger, chairman of its history department and author of “Post-Ethnic America: Beyond Multiculturalism.” He supported racial preferences before Proposition 209, but is no longer so sure. “You could argue that the campus is more diverse now,” because Asians comprise so many different cultures, says Dr. Hollinger.</p>
<p>Dr. Birgeneau agrees on at least one point: “I think we’re now at the point where the category of Asian is not very useful. Koreans are different from people from Sri Lanka and they’re different than Japanese. And many Chinese-Americans are a lot like Caucasians in some of their values and areas of interest.”
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In addition, if these schools are so interested in “diversity” (including geographic diversity) – then why is there such a high % of Jews (43% of Jews live in the Northeast as opposed to 20% of Asians. </p>
<p>(Ironically, the Ivies first went to a geographic diversity admissions policy during the early part of the 1900s in order to limit Jewish enrollment.)</p>
<p>"Leadership is not nearly as big a factor for Princeton admissions as it is for Harvard. That's also been historically true.
(LOL!! If anything, quite the opposite is true.)"</p>
<p>I don't quite understand how either of you know that as a fact. Do you work in admissions at either college? And even if you did, how would you compare?</p>
<p>Not to detract from such a fine argument k&s, but I believe I can offer some perspective here.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Me: If the Ivy colleges are so interested in “diversity”, then why are 25% of the student body Jewish (as high as 30% at some Ivy schools) – a group which is much less diverse than Asians (which encompasses many nations, cultures, languages, religions, etc.).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Regarding the college admissions process, there's simply just no way to tell the difference from a white Jew to a non-Jew Caucasian. Unless your last name is Frank, Fried-something, or Rosen-something it is safe to say that Jewish Americans for the most part are relatively shielded from racial preferences in college admissions. Furthermore, it seems that Jews as an ethnic group in the United States have become a fairly acceptable part of American society, virtually indistinguishable from their Western European-American peers in skin color, social life, and customs. After all, who's going to discriminate against a Jewish person at a party, who essentially looks white. The Jewish ethnicity has come a long way since the early 1900 discriminatory policies against it, even producing a Vice Presidential candidate in 2000 (Lieberman).</p>
<p>More importantly though, there's no ethnic subcategory on the Common Application such that Jewish students have to select 'Jewish'. They can identify themselves as 'White' or 'Caucasian', and then just leave it at that. This is quite the contrast for Asians, where they'll have to identify themselves under the crushing 'Asian American' or 'Asian' label. Of course, not all Asian ethnic groups are even close to the same. Hence, one of the biggest criticisms of racial preferences is that they do not account for the differences between diverse ethnic groups, and therefore, some students benefit from these biases while a lot get rejected from the top colleges. This mighty hole in the system probably also explains why Africans and Caribbeans are 'overrepresented' in general, at top-tier colleges, k&s. To be honest, this lofty categorization of people really intrigues me. It's certainly more discrete than socioeconomic preferences.</p>
<p>I would not blame epiphany though, for she is ignorant and seemingly emotional. After all, MOST people are cognitively biased, believing the things that seem intuitive in their heads, without actually taking into consideration what's real. It was fun watching posters like fabrizio ripping apart the biased arguments of said parents, knowing that the statistics he oftentimes inserts in his rebuttals provide a cold touch of reality. But these biases/stereotypes are an unfortunate consequence in society, because now you have adcoms like Marilee Jones calling out "Korean" guys who are "textureless math grinds" and other admissions peoples making claims that Asians are <em>not</em> discriminated against but...Jewish applicants are?</p>
<p>Unfortunately, with the way this world runs, it doesn't seem to matter what is actually real, but what people believe is actually real. epiphany's rebuttals, are just a sad testament to this fact, and it IS true that Asians are thought of as "textureless math grinds" for the most part. I am hopeful that one day though, Asians will become as accepted in the United States as the Jews are now.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Leadership is not nearly as big a factor for Princeton admissions as it is for Harvard. That's also been historically true.
(LOL!! If anything, quite the opposite is true.)"</p>
<p>I don't quite understand how either of you know that as a fact. Do you work in admissions at either college? And even if you did, how would you compare?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not to put words in anybody's mouth, but I believe k&s did not assert anything there as fact. Hence the expression, "If anything."</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am hopeful that one day though, Asians will become as accepted in the United States as the Jews are now.
[/quote]
Yeah, hope that happens tommorrow..</p>
<p>yea, me too!!!</p>
<p>I know what you mean, dude... I find it hard to tell my parents that i don't want to go to UMICH like my sister.. their arch program is just ugg.. sorry can explain later.. and like the US new college thing is like holy to them.. and umich is like what 23rd? if i want to go anywhere i guess it has to be above 23rd so they'll actually pay for it..</p>
<p>WOW...i feel really proud that there is a thread on asian for 24 pages...</p>
<p>it;s kinda of hard when you are asian and just average like me...and many other asian that's facing the same problem. the communication between asain parents are bettern than Cingualar and AT&T combined...(hehe that happened) and every single night at dinner during those dreaded month when college sends out the decision and you hear the speech about how some other asain dude did and he went to harvard and she went to yale and all the crap when you are eating your sticky rice thinking that you might have a shot at umich even thou you have a gpa lower than Chin Ming Wang's ERA (as of august 3 2007)</p>
<p>....there is just too much pressure on asian teens from steortypes and the tradition culture backgroud...</p>
<p>just my 2 cent <em>spits</em>...</p>
<p>what an akward post....</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't quite understand how either of you know that as a fact. Do you work in admissions at either college? And even if you did, how would you compare?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, if you read up on when the Ivies discriminated against Jews in the early part of the last century, part of the rationale for limiting Jewish enrollment included the belief that they didn’t exhibit the leadership qualities that WASP applicants purportedly did – and Princeton was at the forefront with regard to this belief (which is why it was the 1st to recruit "good ‘ol white boys" from the South and West coast).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Regarding the college admissions process, there's simply just no way to tell the difference from a white Jew to a non-Jew Caucasian. Unless your last name is Frank, Fried-something, or Rosen-something it is safe to say that Jewish Americans for the most part are relatively shielded from racial preferences in college admissions. Furthermore, it seems that Jews as an ethnic group in the United States have become a fairly acceptable part of American society, virtually indistinguishable from their Western European-American peers in skin color, social life, and customs. After all, who's going to discriminate against a Jewish person at a party, who essentially looks white. The Jewish ethnicity has come a long way since the early 1900 discriminatory policies against it, even producing a Vice Presidential candidate in 2000 (Lieberman).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>BB 1984 - </p>
<p>Yeah, there are a good % of Jewish applicants where it would be hard to discern their “Jewishness” unless he/she informed you. Otoh, one could probably make a pretty good guess with a significant portion of the Jewish applicant pool. </p>
<p>Even if that portion was limited to 50% of the Jewish applicant pool - that means the admin at schools like Penn and Yale would have a good idea that the applicants admitted included a healthy 15% representation of Jewish students – which would still be overrepresentation over and beyond that for Asian-American students.</p>
<p>Here’s an interesting sidenote – USC, despite having a Jewish student body that was already “overrepresented” (at 5% - more than 3x that of the college age applicant pool), hired a recruiter for the specific purpose of increasing Jewish enrollment (which subsequently increased to more than 8% presently).</p>
<p>I hate when people think Ivies are their only options and that they want to go there just for the name. But no worries, most of them don't even get in. They are looking for passion, for students who truly want to go their because of what their school offers, not just the name and such.</p>
<p>Sure I am hi but I also think realisticly. Perhaps I should just go to a top school for grad school because of the money.</p>
<p>Main reason why our Asian parents press for Prestige:
Bragging Rights.</p>
<p>How many times have you heard them say or when they are lecturing you in Chinese: "My colleague's son got into Harvard, it's not hard!" or "Full ride to UNC - Chapel Hill, piece of cake! Some average Indian kid got in!" or "You need to get lots of scholarships because there is no way we are paying that much money (even though we own a 400k house)." or "Don't go to that Liberal Arts school! I havn't heard of Amherst or Davidson, they seem like crap schools like bad students attend." or "What are we going to tell your grandparents and our Chinese friends? That our son is attending a small no-name school?" or "If you don't apply to Harvard or Princeton, I'm going to whip you."</p>
<p>I don't really care what they think, as long as I can convince them to support me wherever I end up.</p>
<p>"Main reason why our Asian parents press for Prestige:
Bragging Rights."</p>
<p>I'm not sure if I agree completely. Sure, that could be one reason, but I think most Asian parents are concerned with their children's financial security and greater opportunity; for many, a degree from a prestigious college is equated with just that. In my opinion, this perspective is a bit misguided, but I don't want to doubt the fundamentally good intentions of Asian parents. </p>
<p>With that said, it's a fundamentally and mostly an immigrant mindset. It'll disappear with the children of second generation Asian-Americans--will Asian Americans continue to apply for and attend good colleges? Of course, but the excess pressures will ease for the children and that's going to be a good thing. Hopefully.</p>
<p>The numbers I saw for UCLA diversity are as follows:</p>
<p>approximately 25,000 students
approximately 8300 are caucasian (33%)
approximately 3800 are Chinese (15%)
approximately 1400 are asian Indian (6%)
approximately 4800 are other asian
It's very unusual in the US for a caucasian to be a minority at college, but not at the UCs.</p>
<p>The UC with the highest Chinese population is UC Berkeley (20%). The UC with the highest overall asian population is UC Irvine (51%). The UC with the lowest asian population is UC Santa Cruz (16%).</p>
<p>I agree that it is very much about bragging rights, especially when it's between a great school with less prestige, such as Duke, or an Ivy such as Columbia. I would prefer Duke, but so many Asian parents would say Columbia. (Not saying Duke isn't prestigious, but Asian parents care too much about Ivies+ MIT, Stanford)</p>
<p>There was a time when I was really into liberal arts colleges, and thinking about applying to the best liberal arts colleges (Wlliams, Amherst, etc). It was hard seeing Asian parents wrinkling their noses and being like, "What is Williams?!"</p>
<p>Also, Asian parents really do compare. I'm Asian, and while my school friends are white, our family friends are Asian. It was weird finding out that my white friends' parents don't grill you at all for SAT scores, GPA, APs, etc like our Asian friends' parents did.</p>