<p>I noticed that there are a lot of international students at the top college prep boarding schools. These applicants get to put down they are international applicants on their application, but they get evaluated in the group that the school they attend in the US is. For example if Lawrenceville is in N.J. their applications get read by the regional admission officer for N.J. A student who lives in Wyoming for example but attends a prep school in connecticut, puts down that he is from Wyoming but he is evaluated with all the connecticut kids as that regional admission officer is familiar with that curriculum</p>
<p>Nobody says they can't and I'm sure the situation will be different in the future. But at the moment, chances are not equal.</p>
<p>Touchdown, that doesn't really disprove that African Americans, due to the unique struggles of integration/desegregation, have the hardest time of all achieving in school. Asian Americans have been discriminated against, but not in the way that African Americans were in the specific realm of education (there was no Chang vs. Board of Education). Asian Americans are also lucky and unique in that the culture stresses education, education, education.</p>
<p>The chances may be equal now. But the legacy of the civil rights era prevents African Americans from using those equal chances fully.</p>
<p>Hello, I happen to be an UnderRepresentedMinority born and raised in third-world South America.</p>
<p>In this "meritocracy" of ours, I find it almost repulsive how so many people feel entitled to different things because they feel like they "deserve" it.
If this is how you feel, take a look at your life and subtract the following elements from it (I'm making some assumptions since you all applied to Harvard):</p>
<ol>
<li>The size of your house</li>
<li>Your parents' income</li>
<li>Your SAT prep courses/books</li>
<li>The support and CONSTANT motivation from parents</li>
<li>Your parents' knowledge/experience of college</li>
<li>Your culture's values of learning</li>
<li>Access to AP/IB courses</li>
<li>A safe environment</li>
</ol>
<p>If you subtract all those wonderful things from your life, I can almost GUARANTEE that your chances at Harvard would be severely maimed. So don't feel like you "deserve" Harvard more than someone else. For a loot of you, the ONLY reason for your success is the context you were born in. Trust me, your parents probably deserve more merit for your accomplishments than you do.</p>
<p>rageoholic, I think I love you. Succinct and honest. You couldn't be more right. Especially when you said " Trust me, your parents probably deserve more merit for your accomplishments than you do."</p>
<p>Parents probably deserve more merit for your genetic makeup :) </p>
<p>If the child is mentally challenged, then no matter how many contexts the child grows up in, he or she is not going to succeed.</p>
<p>I love rageoholic too. : ) </p>
<p>I really need to vent. I am sick and tired of Asians who complain about affirmative action. Affirmative action, while it is not perfect and has many flaws, I believe that it helps more than it actually harms. Ideally, affirmative action should have little to do with race/ ethnicity and more to do with SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS or CIRCUMSTANCES. </p>
<p>From what I see, most Asian kids have tons of opportunities. Their parents often encourage music lessons, SAT classes and academic achievement. Their parents hire tutors. Their parents are often college graduates. Their parents try to send them to good elementary, middle, and secondary schools. Any you know what? Most of the Asian families I know are fairly wealthy. </p>
<p>Now, I understand that there are also Asians in America who are not wealthy and do not have many opportunities open for them. Their parents are not college graduates. Their parents do not encourage or cannot afford music lessons, SAT classes, etc. Their parents do not know much about the college admissions process and maybe because of a language barrier are unable to look after their child's education. Etc. Etc. Etc. Usually these Asian kids, if they are able to overcome their circumstances actually have an advantage in college admissions. </p>
<p>Look, I'm Korean. I'm Asian. and I do not think that it is necessarily difficult for Asians to get into Ivy League schools unless an Asian applies as an international. Ivy League schools are very selective. YES? So, adcoms at Ivy League schools would thoroughly read the applications. YES? Also, because they are very selective, they look at other things besides grades and SAT scores. They must look at other things besides the numbers. They must look at personality, leadership, talent, passion, creativity, essays, etc. YES? </p>
<p>Ivy League schools, esp NOW, are looking for individuals. They don't just want people with high grades and perfect or near-perfect SAT scores. They are looking for individuals who are able to overcome adversity. Individuals who are not afraid to follow their passions. Individuals who do not dictate their self-worth by numbers. They want students who will create new paths and students who have their own standards for themselves. They want personality. They want something more than SAT scores and high grades. They want to know the motivations of the student for learning. Is it just to be # 1? Just to win? or is because the student truly wants to learn or enjoys learning? How will this student enrich our campus? Why do you want an Ivy League education? Is it just for the prestige?</p>
<p>You know, sometimes it's not how much you want something, it's WHY you want it that is important. Think about the first Harry Potter book. Think about by Professor Quirell could not get the stone but Harry could. That's a bad analogy . . . I admit . . . and irrelevant.</p>
<p>Maybe some Asian kids aren't getting into very selective schools because their applications don't stand out. Maybe on paper, on an application a lot of Asians just look like copies of one another. Same extra curricular activities, etc. Same motivations. Unoriginal essays. Lack of individuality. Etc?</p>
<p>Maybe instead of getting angry at Ivy League admissions, maybe it's time for some Asian applicants to reflect on their own culpability.</p>
<p>Do you really think Ivy League admissions would be so shallow as to value a high ranking and a high SAT score above all else? </p>
<p>I feel that Asian students sometimes . . . well . . . they seem to care more about winning and fitting into an shallow mold for "success" defined by society rather than actually learning for the sake of learning or to pursue a passion. </p>
<p>AND, IF YOU WERE GOING TO SUE . . . YOU WOULDN'T SAY THAT THE SCHOOL WAS BEING RACIST. YOU WOULD SAY THAT THE COLLEGE WAS BEING CULTURALLY BIASED. MAYBE. </p>
<p>and I don't believe in meritocracy. I believe in context.</p>
<p>and, an apology for an egregious vent.</p>
<p>I honestly believe that Ivy League schools look at applications holistically and they look at context.</p>
<p>woah let's get away from the racial stereotyping for a minute. i think most of us know that many of the things we say are no longer true, especially as the asian population begins to become more assimilated into the established american society (by no means do i mean only white). anyway. i'm asian too and pro-affirmative action and one thing i do agree with subroasianspyder is how many asians constantly nag about being disadvantaged because of simply being asian. what i find even more disturbing about this trend is that the only reason they are against it is because it hurts them, and i mean, that if i helped them, they would be ok with it. so knowing that it does indeed hurt my chances of getting in (although seriously i'm not anyway lol), i support affirmative action 80% because i think it's legit and reasonable that colleges, who want to build a well-rounded, interesting, and experienceful (i know it's not a word) environment for their students. being from a URM or being from a different, or being from an economically disadvantaged environment all contribute to the individuals into who we have become today. colleges recognize that. and want to use that to create the college that will build us, show us the world, show us all types of people, and give us the knowledge and experience that would otherwise be nonexistent (as in related culture/people experience). it does become a factor into which colleges should look at and as students who go to such colleges exactly because we know we would Learn and grow there for such reasons. colleges wouldn't be the colleges they are today, whether be it harvard or any other college, if they hadn't started affirmative action. it should be a valid part of the admissions process and most likely it will remain. though i am glad to see the shift away from the race focus into income brackets, because there are So many people who deserve to go to great college without worrying about money. and again, it counts against me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you really think Ivy League admissions would be so shallow as to value a high ranking and a high SAT score above all else?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ivy admissions are shallow and fairly predictable. The use of electron microscopes and ten extra parameters isn't buying either subtlety or better results as measured by the performance of students, salaries commanded at graduation, GRE scores, professional school admissions. Classes are becoming more homogeneous by the year, despite allegations of "diversity". Where's the benefit? What would be wrong with admitting most of the class based on objective measures and performing the current Byzantine analyses for at most a small fraction?</p>
<p>Nice use of "byzantine" . . . : )</p>
<p>because success in life is not soley based on objective measures. because admission's officers are human. because the worth of a student is not determined by numbers only.</p>
<p>Tell me, siserune, how are Ivy League admissions shallow and predictable? What is your credo on Ivy League caliber admissions?</p>
<p>How are classes becoming more homogeneous each year? </p>
<p>I think objective measures don't say much without context or at least a consideration of factors such as environment or circumstance. </p>
<p>There is more to a human being than his or her objective measurements. A human being has a STORY. A human being has dreams, aspirations, and a future. A human being has a VOICE. Often unquantifiable factors influence human potential. </p>
<p>You can't expect Ivy League caliber admissions to be cut and dry. It's a very thorough and a very human process.</p>
<p>(and I'm sorry my diction isn't good as yours : ) )</p>
<p>You know a lot of affirmative actions have done quite well and have rich parents. There are poor people of every race maybe affirmative action should be based on income not race because that is stereotyping everybody. Not all whites and asians are rich and not all blacks and hispanics are poor.</p>
<p>In response to Sulipro and Jimbobo:</p>
<p>You basically said that blacks grow up in a culture that doesn't encourage education and should therefore be rewarded when they succeed. Well, what proof do you have of that? Are you going to cite some black neighborhood where kids shoot each other up? Are you black? What proof do you have? Cite me one academic paper that supports what you say.</p>
<p>And even if what you say is true, that blacks grow up in a culture that doesn't support learning, affirmitive action is not the answer. Why? I'll give you five reasons:
1. If you use AA as you say, it is pure racism and you're no different than the people you who discriminated against you. You become the racist.
2. AA lowers standards of accountability. Asians (from personal experience) study hard because they know the bar of Asian admissions is so high. If you set the bar for URM lower, what motivation do they have to succeed?
3. AA leads to a color consious society where people will be judged by the color of their skin and not by the content of their character.
4. It is condescending to minorities. You're saying their second class.
5. It leads to ill-will towards minorities and tarnishes true minority achievement. </p>
<p>So tell me, where does my logic fail?</p>
<p>I don't know whether you want others to answer this, but your logic doesn't fail in my opinion.</p>
<p>To collegebond: AA shouldn't "maybe" be based on income, it should definitely be based on socio-economic background instead of race, for all the reasons atiscorp has given in his post.</p>
<p>@atiscorp</p>
<ol>
<li>Someone who recognizes differences between cultures and living conditions on the basis of ethnicity is - at least in my opinion - not a racist. According to wikipedia.org "Racism is a belief system or doctrine which postulates a hierarchy among various "human races" or ethnic groups" (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racist%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racist</a>). AA is not based on the belief that anyone is superior/inferior - it is based on the fact that there are obvious differences in living conditions/ opportunities / etc..</li>
<li>I claim that Asians do not study harder than people from URM's do. Therefore, it doesn't lower the bar at all.</li>
<li>AA doesn't guarantee admission for URM's. They also have to write essays, do standardized testing, send teacher recs etc. So they are judged by their character. </li>
<li>It gives them a fair chance, I wouldn't consider it as "condescending". But since I'm not a URM, I can't give reply to this point. We should simply ask them how they feel about it...</li>
</ol>
<p>"Classes are becoming more homogeneous by the year, despite allegations of 'diversity.'"</p>
<p>That isn't true at all. Look up the official class of 2011 stats. The class is more diverse than ever, ethnically and economically.</p>
<p>If a person is a US resident he or she should apply under US Citizen/Resident category, not international!!!</p>
<p>I can just imagine the people in the admissions office drinking coffee and going over the application files..."Hmm...this Chang fellow scored 2400 on his SATs, won science and music awards...let's grab him! Oh wait...he's asian...pfttt. NEXT!"</p>
<p>Do you think it really happens that way?</p>
<p>
[quote]
The class is more diverse than ever, ethnically and economically.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The official diversity numbers are very misleading, for many reasons. The modal white, black, Asian, etc students are quite similar. If by "economic diversity" you mean a huge majority of affluent students, plus a few people from low-income families who had an at least middle-class level of upbringing and educational opportunity, that isn't how most would use the term. Few students had to miss a meal or work a job (and skip school) to avoid doing so, whatever their financial aid level.</p>