<p>Just in case anyone feels so inclined, I'd be keen to open a conversation with those of you who frequent the Tufts boards on your thoughts/concerns/objections/reactions to the NPR story on Amherst's admissions process. </p>
<p>Behind</a> The Scenes: How Do You Get Into Amherst? : NPR</p>
<p>There are differences between the process used there and the one at Tufts, but much of the depiction felt consistent with my experience.</p>
<p>Do admission officers really feel that lines such as “Chicken McNuggets” are funny???</p>
<p>I encouraged my son to be “himself” in his writing. The admissions deans on his tours said the essay was a chance to be more personal and to communicate his passions and interests to the committee. I figured genuine was better. </p>
<p>My question is:<br>
Was I wrong?
Can an experienced reader tell when essays have been co-written by parents and college coaches?</p>
<p>D1 (who is an ED admit) and I had the exact same reaction to the piece: TMI. Quoting actual lines from the essays…and then saying that the student was rejected? Some poor kid might well find out they were rejected by listening to Morning Edition on the way to school. All the other applicants who weren’t quoted, meanwhile, are stressing out over how their essays were being perceived. </p>
<p>Tufts does a much better (though perhaps not perfect) job of anonymizing and making the information more general. </p>
<p>I’ve said before that I’d prefer to see the Tufts liveblog of the ED decisions be published after decisions are available. It’s a very useful resource, and not just for Tufts applicants. But having those admissions discussions go public in real time when it could be you being described is incredibly stressful.</p>
<p>I’m bothered by the discussion that an applicant using the phrase “not many things interest me, but” is interpreted to mean he/she is not open to new ideas, etc. The phrase was probably nothing more than an opening sentence and way too much was read into it.
I think Paul Krugman had a blog entry that Princeton should reject every application that referred to being “passionate” about something. Maybe the final 20 to 30 slots should be filled by a random drawing - it would work just as well.</p>
<p>Thanks for posting this. Honestly Dan, I find Amherst’s process slightly demeaning and impersonal. There was really no dialogue between voters about that profile? He wasn’t clearly disqualified. </p>
<p>On that note, I am one of the many tens of thousands of applicants hoping to see my way through this difficult process. I know that you all do your best to see the person through the typeface on the application, but I felt as though the succinct description of the applicant is far from personal. I just hope and pray that you can see and feel who I am through a simple paper. I know your job is tremendously difficult, I thank you for everything you do. I hope to see you on campus soon. :)</p>
<p>More or less how I imagined the process, but the SP31 bit makes me feel very conflicted. </p>
<p>I definitely agree that when it comes down to two kids who seem so equally qualified on paper, an edge should be given to the student with a clear cut disadvantage in life/school. Still, its troubling because I know a number of people who used their low income status to their advantage in that way, and one who flat out lied about his feelings about being low income; i.e., something fairly well written, but to the effect of “I feel that i should strive for socioeconomic mobility every day because of all of the sacrifices my parents made for me blah blah blah”, when in reality he pretty much coasts through school and spends his free time facebooking surfing on stumbleupon.</p>
<p>But yes, its a flawed system, perhaps irreparably so, so I don’t hate adcoms for having to make a decision based on minute differences in applications like the ones in the broadcast. Should be a lesson learned in not becoming too attached to a single school.</p>
<p>What bothered me about Chicken McNuggets kid is that what the admissions committees seem so often to be drawn to is a particular tone in kid’s writing – At first I thought that they liked “snarky”, but later I realized that adcoms seem to really like kids who are irreverent. Apparently to them it shows depth, or an ability to look beyond the obvious and the ability to question authority – or something.</p>
<p>The problem, however, is that irreverence is a tone which only truly privileged, self-confident kids can actually pull off well. It’s hard to be snarky and irreverent about your dad when you watch the guy wake up at 5 AM, leave the house when it’s still dark out, drive an old car and do without so you can have things, pack his lunch, work two jobs and get home around midnight. There’s not a lot of room in that equation for “dumb &*(( my dad says.” Decent kids don’t enjoy making fun and laughing at people who work hard. They might even respect their parents. </p>
<p>But it seems like every essay that’s ever quoted in those ‘how to get into college’ manuals aims for that same snarky, irreverent attitude: hey, let’s make fun of our teachers, ourselves, those other kids in our class, people who wear the wrong clothes, the elderly, Jesus, and US foreign policy.</p>
<p>I found myself thinking about this last night when my son asked me to take a look at something he was working on for school. I realized that he’s probably the least snarky person I ever met. He respects those in authority, doesn’t joke with and call adults by their first names and he doesn’t make fun of people. But I’m afraid that the adcom will decide that he’s boring compared to the clever, snarky kid who makes everything into a joke. </p>
<p>In a way, I think the tendency to prefer that tone is a form of discrimination. People who don’t have the luxury of being irreverent are usually poor people, first generation immigrants, kids who don’t get exposed to a lot of pop culture and maybe late in life babies with older parents.</p>
<p>I just find it odd that what intrigues the adcom seems to be kids who can channel Miley Cyrus or Eddie Murphy or something – since that probably has more to do with being raised in a permissive, wealthy household than anything else.</p>
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<p>Slithey Tove, I could not agree more!</p>
<p>This piece reinforced my belief that admission to selective colleges isn’t strictly about merit and qualifications, and that after a point it’s completely out of the applicant’s control. </p>
<p>It is a most regrettable fact that many able, ambitious 18-year-olds will decide they were not good enough, or didn’t measure up, simply because a spot at Tufts or Amherst or Stanford went to another kid with totally comparable qualifications. Throughout this process, I’ve tried to keep reminding my daughter and myself that she didn’t apply anywhere that she had no business applying. She had good essays and objective qualifications that were above the median for the colleges she applied to. Dan, please correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d say that makes her a good candidate for all these colleges. If she’s not chosen, that doesn’t mean that she wasn’t a viable candidate. In some cases, it may not even necessarily that the person who got “her” spot is better in any measurable way.</p>
<p>My wife points out often that admissions committees aren’t trying to build a meritocracy; they’re trying to build a freshman class. I assume they want a freshman class with promise and accomplishments and variety and balance.</p>
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<p>I’ll start here, though I’ll see to how many more of your thoughts I have reactions.</p>
<p>What’s important to note here is that the voting takes place after a file has been summarized (both by EX/Stats and more qualitatively through a summary/reflection of the content of essays and recommendations). If the pool at Amherst looks anything like it does at Tufts, there is a shockingly small portion of the pool that is “clearly disqualified.” In all seriousness, the number of students who apply without the necessary academic credentials for success is tiny - less than 10%. By the time a file reaches committee, we’re looking for a confluence of factors: academic strength, personality, curiosity, community engagement. And, in extremely selective processes, you need something distinctive that let’s you distinguish a student from the sea of applications you have. </p>
<p>I want to be clear about the way I use the word “distinctive.” This does not mean unique. You do not have to say something in a totally new and original way. You don’t have to be the only person in the pool engaged in some esoteric activity like harmonica racing. But, you should be able to articulate n your application what lets you stand apart in a group or it’s difficult to build a case for admission. And, if in hearing the summary of your application, no one in the room hears that piece, there isn’t much of a discussion left to be had.</p>
<p>Examples of things I found distinctive in my admit group this year:
A guy who uses poetry to help him make difficult social decisions
Flautist who feels pulled to play the piccolo instead and can explain the cultural reasons for why
A recommendation that described a student so excited about history he started talking with civil war slang</p>
<p>What I think is important about the above examples is that you can start to imagine what those people are like even from short snippets. The thoughtfulness of that first boy, the musician fascinated by the interplay of culture and music who isn’t afraid to do unconventional things, the dorky but charming nature of the civil war buff. @maserrano, you say that a succinct description doesn’t feel personal - I would dispute that. </p>
<p>While I sit in the camp of people who heard “Chicken Nuggets” and didn’t understand the appeal, I can recall a gal from two years ago who managed to write about her affection for dinosaur shaped foods in a way that sounded smart and fun. Being able to combine smart and fun may not be a unique skill, but it certainly is a distinctive one.</p>
<p>No time to read all other comments, but my initial reaction is one of incredulity. We all want kids to be kids and to be themselves. Yet, at least in this case, there was no understanding and a lot of hair splitting when it came to a discussion on essays, and seemingly little emphasis on the four years of work reflected in the transcript. One person advocating (or not) in 60 seconds? When people talk about placing less emphasis on scores and more on the transcript, I wonder if that’s what’s really going on. Usually, the essays are described as “tie breakers.” From this example, it seems like the essays are the most important factor. Too bad there is no assurance that the kids are actually writing those essays themselves.</p>
<p>Dan, I hadn’t thought about many of those points prior to this conversation. Looking back, I recant my previous statement. I can see how quips such as those can speak volumes-- I’ve often unwittingly concluded traits about others similarly. </p>
<p>Your job, I believe, is among the hardest out there. I cannot imagine saying no to so many eager students; yet it is indeed necessary. I thank you for your very articulate response, it is, for some strange reason, an honor to speak with an admissions rep such as yourself. I think all of you do amazingly kind things for students everywhere. </p>
<p>Again, I thank you for your response and dedication, and I hope to see you soon.</p>
<p>I must say that I respect Tufts process a lot better than many schools. I think the essays give a distinct voice for someone to be themselves. I believe if someone is genuine, even if that means embracing their quirky nature, that speaks more volumes about an individual than “numbers” (e.g. GPA, test scores, etc.) ever can.</p>
<p>U of Chicago does the same thing. I really find that approach much better. Because some kids can come from a school of 700 kids while others from a class of 50. Being 10th means different things at either school (one you are the top 10% the other you aren’t).</p>
<p>And SAT scores only serves to show people that have the resources to study for the exam and/or that are good test takers. Same with the ACT. Up to a point, it doesn’t say much (that one day you took it might have been bad, or perhaps that other day just wasn’t your best, etc.).</p>
<p>But essays are different. They allow a student to tell their story. That story can be anything. It can be about someone’s quirky, crazy, or even affirming nature. Or perhaps it’s about someone overcoming an adversity or unexpected trials and the lessons they learned or the hardships they endured or continue to endure. To me, that reflects a different kind of intelligence. Kuddos for the article. Interesting stuff.</p>
<p>This is kinda random but Dan, you and the rest of your committee ask THE BEST essay questions. I reread my Tufts supplements (out of boredom and anxiety for tomorrow) and I really wish all of the other places that I applied to asked similar questions. The essays I submitted were such great representations of who I am, something I didn’t really get to show with the rest of my apps.</p>
<p>Dan, I have always wondered whether admissions committees evaluate their admits, all of them but espcecially the ones. For example, this guy: Lee calls the vote, and this controversial applicant clears the admit bar by a single vote."</p>
<p>Sorry, that got posted by a wayward paw.</p>
<p>I meant to ask if the admissions committee make a consistent, concerted effort to look at the admits after one year, and then again after four years, to see if their instincts to admit students were justified - that, is who is engaged in the community and thriving academically and who is isolated and struggling?</p>
<p>Isn’t evaluation an integral of every successful organization?</p>
<p>Dan, thanks for starting this discussion. I, like others who have posted here, would like to know if adcoms can tell the difference between an essay a student has written and one that has been extensively edited and polished by a teacher or by a $40,000 college admissions coach. A young man that my daughter went to grade school and middle school with, who was very open about trying to measure up to the academic bar that she set, went on to an elite and expensive high school. His mom told me recently that they finally saw the high tuition really start to pay off when it came time for college applications. She described the process that her son went through with his GC, in which the GC would decide if and when the essay was good enough to submit. If he didn’t deem it ready, he’d send the student for further editing or complete rewriting with his English teacher. My daughter did not have that kind of help, her GC was not nearly as tuned into the college application process, and we assumed that as a matter of principle and integrity her writing should be her own, without substantial input from others. I echo the question that jasonsmom asked: Were we wrong? Is my daughter, whose parents could not afford to sent her to an expensive high school and whose GC did not help her with her college application, at a disadvantage? I asked this question on a CC parent thread and got some helpful replies, but I would really like to hear your point of view as an admissions counselor.</p>
<p>I admit to feeling troubled about the essay being such an important admissions factor without a more level playing field. Like illmom I worry that four years plus of hard work and awesoome achievements could be overlooked because of an essay that may or may not be the work of the applicant. Do you have any reassurance to offer, or any advice for future trips down the admissions road with younger siblings?</p>
<p>Since the Tufts admission officer invited comments about the NPR story and reactions thereto, I’ll weigh in with my perspective.</p>
<p>First of all, I’m a big Tufts booster and I think that is an excellent institution with superior (if not elite) students. I believe Tufts offers an education that compares very favorably with many of the Ivy league and Little Ivy schools (including Amherst). I make no comment, however, whether Tufts and every other highly selective private university or college is seriously overpriced . . . frankly, it is difficult for me to understand why anyone would pay the exorbitant tuition and fees charged by these institutions, especially in the throes of a recessionary economy where jobs are generally hard to come by for all college graduates. Call me a cynic and I’ll heartily agree with you.</p>
<p>As a result, it may not come as any surprise that I find the admissions process at schools like Amherst and Tufts to be problematic at best. I understand that it may be very difficult to decide between (among?) legions of applicants all possessing high test scores, stellar grade point averages, and diverse extracurricular activities . . . but the idea of making a choice based upon some quirky statement or quality purportedly contained within an application essay strikes me as naive and gullible. Do the admissions officers really believe that they can discern the difference between a “passionate” student brimming with unsatisfied intellectual curiosity and a calculating poseur who utilizes contrived and snarky phrases to build a false persona? I’ll bet there are hundreds and hundreds of kids currently attending highly selective schools who were admitted after submitting faked, ghosted, and “phony” essays (not to mention heavily exaggerated and embellished applications). And what does it say about those officers (sorry, nothing personal, but it is what it is) who seize upon eccentricities and oddities (including “je ne sais quoi”) in an applicant’s presentation to determine admission? Talk about an ivory (or is it Ivy) tower approach! What about the dutiful, studious, over-achieving, multi-dimensional high school students who have no particular quirks or passions but will nevertheless eventually blossom into engaged, successful, respectable, and committed solid citizens? In my view, these types of students form the true bedrock of a successful class.</p>
<p>So, that’s my two cents. Take issue with me if you like . . . but you’ll never convince me that the admissions procedures apparently practiced at highly selective schools (including Amherst and Tufts) is anything other than capricious and pretentious.</p>
<p>Maybe arbitrary, but not capricious.</p>
<p>I think they’re saying that there are so many qualified students, and in many cases, the applications don’t really stand out, so the committee has to find any hook they can to differentiate.</p>
<p>I would never describe it as “pretentious.” I do see where you’re coming from, to an extent, though. On other points, I disagree. Regardless, these things happen across the board. Schools only have so much room and have so many applicants. They can’t wave a wand and accept everybody that “deserves” to be there. If someone wants to act as a phony to get in through the admissions process, that is horrible. It is a disgusting trait of the person, but this will happen across the board, and there’s only so much that can be done, in my opinion. With so many people that have that 2300 SAT score or 4.0 GPA, there needs to be other ways to distinguish them otherwise it might as well be an eenie-meenie-miney-mo attempt. The essays seem to be the most logical way to do this, but people will be who they are and not always be true. There’s not much that can be done about that. In the end, if they get in (besides the fact that their conscience should be destroying them from the inside out), they will most likely not get far in life anyway. It’s a sign of a bad character, and if it goes by the admissions committee, it won’t fly for the rest of life when the person’s not being compared to thousands upon thousands of other applicants. Do I think the admissions process of colleges is flawed? No. Do I think they have certain loose ends in places that can be disappointing? Yes. However, there’s only so much that can be done, and I, personally, feel that Tufts (among many others) does one of the best jobs at doing so. Keep in mind, this is my opinion and nothing more. I can tell you from personal experience that people have sat down to start their Tufts app, saw the essay questions (their number and uniqueness), realized they couldn’t copy one of their essays from another school or make it up blindly on the spot with exaggerated details, and simply threw in the towel at the start. They said, “no way! I’m not applying here with 3 essays and an optional essay. These questions are ridiculous.” The questions are made to release your inner character. Yes, more devoted applicants might be able to obtain unfair advantages, but these things happen throughout life and cannot be stopped at the university’s doors. I would never go as far to say that it’s a “pretentious” process, especially because this is one of the last qualities to describe a Tufts student, for instance. Selective and perhaps even picky? Yes. I wouldn’t say pretentious.</p>