Got it, thanks.
So, for Haverford, it’s esp. impt for a recruit to ask the coach what % of supported, pre-read athletes the coach has successfully gotten through admissions in his or her time at the school.
If the coach is being honest, it’s going to be a number much less than 100%.
The athlete can then take the calculated risk, weighed against whatever other options he or she has.
But I can say, if a coach says “Of the athletes who I’ve received a positive pre-read, and who have my full support, 75% have been admitted,” I would not apply ED to that school. That would seem crazy.
8Bagels. Some coaches at some schools actually do have a 100% success rate of getting kids in that that tell they are going to recruit and admissions has ok’ed. They work well with admissions and the read is very clear.
@tbull “they don’t do “pre-reads” followed by 99% certainty” means that their pre-read is garbage then. What’s the purpose of the pre-read at Haverford? “Hey, this is what I think on this Tuesday, but don’t hold me to this. I might change my mind on Friday.”?
what do you think the pre-read is for?
it is beyond obvious that there’s no guarantee. I wonder if you’d accept that answer in any other facet of your life.
“I fixed the brakes. I can’t guarantee that they’ll work, but you’re good to go on your trip.”
And nobody, absolutely nobody, is telling you or Haverford to play by anybody else’s rules … other than to have their coach be honest and say, “our pre-read process doesn’t mean jack **** and I can’t swing a decision in your favor even if you apply ED.”
I think @8bagels hit the nail on the head: the number is less than 100%. Just understand and accept that at schools higher up the pecking order, the number is at or damn near 100%, with a few weird results once in a while, but truly the exception to the rule.
Just tell them what the number is and move on. Then they can adequately assess the risk and see if Haverford is worth rolling the dice.
“Of the kids in my position, i.e., positive pre-read and your full support for a roster spot, what % have not been admitted during your time here as head coach?”
This! For the win.
No wonder our country is in the woeful state it’s in! Nobody knows how to have a back and forth dialogue any more. All this bitter, juvenile black and white thinking and zero listening (Middlebury dad). Keep it up - I wouldn’t want you to tax yourself, after all. It’s easier to scapegoat and demonize somebody than engage your brain.
Precisely, 8bagels! Coach Bathory’s response when asked: “typically 50 - 60% are actually admitted.” And the question is…what?
DivIII - I now declare you, officially, full of yourself and FOS to boot. Care to do any more name dropping and any further establishing of your credentials to impress us? I happen to be more connected than you and know for a fact that your insinuation about the prior coach’s departure is patently false. But that doesn’t seem to matter with you, oh great (self appointed) lacrosse oracle. Interesting that you pulled that factoid out of you left ear this deep into the debate. You are obviously well practiced at making crap up and repeating yourself to the point that even you believe it.
i wonder how many of these athletes who did not get in just “phoned in” their supplemental essays. Haverford’s supplemental essays are said to be an important part of the application, showing if an applicant “gets” Haverford and is a good fit for the community. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is a stumbling block for some applicants.
MODERATOR’S NOTE: Please stop the bickering or I will close the thread.
tbull, you might be more connected than me. I wouldn’t know. You do seem to know, so I’ll defer to your superior credentials. Obviously, I’m not entirely clued in or I would have known about all this before my problems at Haverford. However, I did reach out to Murphy after my problem with Haverford to get some color. Nothing strange, he didn’t like the system so he left for a better job. Remember, before Haverford he spent some time at an Ivy, so to go from Likely Letters to the system you are defending, most have been quite a shock. nothing earth shattering about that, it is all documented in the 6 or 8 part NYTimes article. Not sure why I’m FOS, but ok.
Point taken, moderator. This is more fun than a barrel of monkeys… Let’s all dial it back and meet for a beer some time! Good luck to each an every one of you, and to your families. Just try assuming the best of intentions and consider the responsibility of both the message deliverer and receiver (Haverford coaches and recruits/parents). Peace, all.
Ditto
@DivIIIAlum “Some coaches at some schools actually do have a 100% success rate of getting kids in that that tell they are going to recruit and admissions has ok’ed. They work well with admissions and the read is very clear.”
I know. I know some of those coaches. 
I think the point in the end is “Havorford Athletic Recruits Beware.” Havorford is not like other Div 3 colleges, so if you have another compelling offer, take it! Don’t mess up your one shot.
It must be really difficult to be a coach at Haverford who needs to successfully recruit yet does not have the same operating system or pull with admissions as his competitors do. I get how that can lead to some less than crystal clear communication and would not place all the blame on the coach since I’m sure he’d prefer if his hands weren’t tied. However, parents have a right to compare notes and warn each other. For what it’s worth, tbull, I’ve been on CC for some time now and a while back saw similar warnings made about a particular Princeton coach for a different sport. In fact, Haverford is currently #1 on my D’s list, but I am starting to think it may not be so smart to keep it there.
I think it depends a lot on how a particular student is approaching their college search and whether there is real passion for Haverford as a school, first and foremost. Not taking anything away from the other outstanding D3 LACs out there (there are numerous incredible schools), it is a unique and special place and was my son’s first choice academically and culturally (after visiting many schools) even aside from lacrosse. I believe that came through in his application and interview and his “fit” made a significant difference in the admissions process - he felt, as did we, that he would be a solid applicant for Haverford either way. Eyes open and AWARE, he was happy to take his chances knowing that he was among the coach’s top recruits and feeling strongly that he was right for Haverford, and Haverford was right for him.
While I do imagine that it can be challenging for Haverford coaches at times, they are able to consistently field competitive teams by assessing athletic ability, academic qualifications and overall “fit” among a self-selected pool of applicants who know (this was emphasized to us over and over) that they can’t get a “100% certain pre-read” on their application. That said, it’s not going to be a fit for everyone. I also respect that others may have different priorities, strategy and criteria for the use of their one ED choice.
“I think the point in the end is “Havorford Athletic Recruits Beware.” Havorford is not like other Div 3 colleges, so if you have another compelling offer, take it! Don’t mess up your one shot.”
As a parent who went through this with Kid #1, didn’t go through it with Kid #2 looking at the same grouping of schools, and am now going through it with Kid #3, I agree with this wholeheartedly.
Kid #1: Very solid D3 or D2 athlete, a push for lower-end D1 athlete.
Kid #2: No athletic recruiting; had to do it on grades and scores alone.
Kid #3: The best athlete of the three - high priority D3, priority D2 and solid D1 athlete, just outside the dream D1 class (Cal, Stanford, etc.). The least academically accomplished of the three (though perhaps the most academically talented).
When I’m done with #3, I feel like I may be finally qualified to write a book about something. It has been a ride.
Kid #3 will really bush the boundaries for what athletics can do for you at highly selective schools.
@tbull, I’m dialing it back. But I want to conclude by saying that I was, in fact, listening to your points. In fact particularly your points because you have a kid a Haverford who went through the very process we’ve been discussing. I just didn’t agree with a lot of what you said.
@MiddlebuyDad2 - fair enough, and thank you. Can you clarify your areas of disagreement? At least for me, they were probably lost in the elevated emotionality of the earlier exchange. I don’t want to squander an opportunity for healthy dialogue that may be helpful and productive for others. And…I would read your book!
and…I apologize for going a bit over the top in my earlier comments to you. They were uncalled for.
If that is really what the coach says, the question is, “Why would anybody use their one shot at ED on 50/50 odds, when other comparable programs are offering close to 100% odds?” I’ve been reading this thread with interest, but absolutely no investment in Haverford or in sports recruiting, other than as an observer.
It seems to me most likely that what happened to some kids is that they didn’t ask the question about what percentage of supported kids was admitted, and that the coach didn’t volunteer this information, either. That would be enough to explain the bad rep, and it would be pretty easy to fix–and maybe it has been fixed.
Laxfamily…as someone that has been fairly critical here of Haverford College, and attacked as a result, it appears that it might be possible that the problems were in years past and they have been rectified. It seems most of the complaints, like mine, and yours, are of events a couple of years ago, and the defenders have had more recent experiences. While it is now clear to me that Haverford has a completely different Admissions system that almost any other school, it is possible that they have made some attempt to communicate this more clearly, if only because of the incredible negative blowback on this site and others.
I don’t know that for a fact. Just inferring. My heart goes out to your son because I know exactly how that feels.