Athletic Relevance returning for some Ivy colleges….

College Search & Selection
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<p>the_prestige, I would certainly include Dartmouth, Penn, Washington University, and Johns Hopkins in the list of universities that do not have a rich athletic tradition. As far as I am concerned, Dartmouth is indeed weaker than Brown, but netiehr has a substantial or noteworthy athletic tradition. Whether or not those universities have had some success in some sports is not the issue. Johns Hopkins has done very well in Lacrosse and Penn has had some success in Basketball. But none of those universities have a strong athletic presence or culture on campus. Ivy League Football is a joke. I attended a couple of Cornell games, and even the Cornell vs Dartmouth game was pathetic. Ivy League Basketball isn’t much better. In Hockey, Cornell and Harvard have significant traditions, but the remaining Ivies are not noteworthy. Same goes for Baseball. </p>

<p>This said, as I in my previous post, university athletics are not a pre-requisite for a great campus culture. I personally love Brown.</p>

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<p>But Alexandre, for you to say that Brown (or any Ivy for that matter) athletics should be in the same category as a Caltech, MIT, NYU (all Division III schools) is not only a ridiculous notion its simply an incredibly ignorant statement that I would expect from anyone but yourself.</p>

<p>There are Ivy representatives in every major professional sport (football, basketball and baseball) – obviously not to the extent of a football factory like USC or Texas – but they are there and undeniable. There is also plenty of Ivy representation at the Olympics as well. </p>

<p>You can’t say that about student athletes at MIT or Caltech, frankly, its an insulting and preposterous notion.</p>

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<p>The-prestige, you are arguing with yourself as I don’t see a point to this debate. The Ivy League is not known for sports. I am well aware of Ivy League athletics. I agree that they are ahead of the likes of Caltech, MIT and NYU, but that’s saying nothing since these three universities have no sports presence whatsoever. In Brown’s case, I can only think of two or three athletes that have made a name for themselves in recent history (since I was born back in 1973). Yann Danis (NHL), Steve Jordan (NFL, retired) and Sean Morey (NFL) are the only three I can think of. I am sure there are two or three others that you can name, but in a 40-year period, that’s not much. In that same period, average Division I football programs will send 1 or 2 of their athletes to the NFL annually. Over 40 years, we are talking about 50 or 60 NFL players, not 2 or 3. </p>

<p>As for the Olympics, can you please tell me how many Brown athletes have won Gold, Silver and Bronze medals? 3, maybe 4 in 100 years of olympic games? I am willing to bet that Tom Dolan (6 gold and 2 sliver) or Michael Felps (14 gold and 2 bronze). Altogether, Michigan atheltes have won 122 olympic medals (57 gold, 28 silver and 36 bronze), and Michigan is not even considered an athletic powerhouse when it comes to olympic sports. USC athletes, for example, have won 240 medals (115 gold, 65 silver and 60 bronze). Stanford, Cal, UCLA athletes have won as many medals as USC. </p>

<p>Ironically, Heisman himsefl attended Brown (I think) back in the day, but then again, the Ivies were athletic powerhouses back in the 19th centiury and in the first half of the 20th century. JoePa also attended Brown, and he is, in my opinion, one of the greatest coaches ever.</p>

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<p>Thank you. That’s all I wanted to hear. I don’t have a pressing need to debate this any further either.</p>

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<p>And you would be wrong again. **Brown athletes have 36 total medals including 8 Gold. **Here is an unofficial tally of Olympic Medals by Ivy athletes:</p>

<p>[Medal</a> Count Ivies in China](<a href=“http://iviesinchina.com/medal-count/]Medal”>http://iviesinchina.com/medal-count/)</p>

<p>For the Ivies: 475+ Medals in Total, 150+ of them Gold Medals.</p>

<p>Besides, the comparison wasn’t USC or Michigan vs. the Ivies and you damn well know that – so please don’t move the goalposts for your own convenience. </p>

<p>It was your contention that Ivy athletes should be looped in with Caltech / MIT. Which you have now admitted was an error. My entire point has been to correct that, which I have done, so I really don’t feel the need to belabor the point now.</p>

<p>One thing is absolutely clear: you love to disrespect Ivy athletes, when it is clear they punch above the weight of your underestimation time and again. I mean I just proved it once again. You thought Brown athletes only had 3 or 4 Olympic medals in its history. I had no idea what the number was, but lo and behold – its 10 TIMES your lowball estimation. Frankly, I relish this.</p>

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<p>In that regard, I will fully admit that the Ivy League has an athletic presence whereas Caltech and MIT do not.</p>

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<p>Its all good Alex. Let’s call it a truce now! :)</p>

108

<p>I am no stranger to rivalry the_prestige. My best friend (and best man at my wedding) is a “red-blooded” Cornell alum, and when we were undergrads (he at Cornell and I at Michigan), he always bragged of how Cornell had a 12-6 record vs Michigan in football. Now that I am a Cornell alum myself, he can no longer brag! hehe! It did not matter that all of those games were played pre-1953 (50 years before we were undergrads at those two universities)…rivalries are always fun.</p>

109

<p>ah ha! So Michigan has a losing record against the Big Red? Nice.</p>

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<p>Michigan is also at 0.500 against Harvard and Yale in Football and barely over 0.500 against Penn and Princeton. We never played Brown, and we are 1.000 vs Columbia and Dartmouth. The Ivy League used to be a powerhouse in football back in the 19th century and in the first half of the 20th century.</p>

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<p>Today the Ivy League is home to 240 lb. midgets who would look out of place in the Michigan big house.</p>

112

<p>coureur,
I have read the article and heard Harvard’s response as well as the accusations made by opposing schools or newspapers that have an interest in stirring up a controversy. Maybe I’m being na</p>

113

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The IVY league has school level limits on recruits by AI band … with no inside knowledge it looks like Harvard has decided to use more of the lower AI recruiting slots on bball … which is perfectly within the rules assuming other sports have lost some of their low AI recruits. </p>

<p>That said dumping current players was pretty harsh but not totally not unheard of … and having school wide better FA policies is certainly a HUGE recruiting advantage.</p>

114

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<p>For the sake of accuracy, football doesn’t typically generate much excitement at Duke (it is last in the ACC in average attendance). Other than that your statement is spot on.</p>

115

<p>Hawkette, Michigan Football was pretty good from 1970-2007. It is just the last two years where we have been mediocre. Hopefully, in a couple of years, Michigan will have another 35-year run!</p>

116

<p>"I agree with Alex that Ivy athletics are a non-factor in major sports and even more so in the social aspect of the athletic life for their students and alums. Cornell and Harvard are changing that this year and I join their many fans in hoping that they are successful. "</p>

<p>There IS a social aspect of athletic life for those Cornell students that want it. However, this was not created this year with the basketball team’s recent success. It has existed there at least since the early 1960s, and revolves around their hockey program. Hockey is, and has been for years, an avidly, and rabidly, followed spectator sport there, among the subset of students that like that sort of thing…</p>

<p>They routinely sell out Lynah Rink every game, and have for years.</p>

<p>To give an example of where the Cornell community’s (and alumni) athletics priorities lie:</p>

<p>In late 2007 and 2009 Cornell played BU in hockey at Madison Square Garden, and both games sold out the Garden,with attendance 18,000+, probably 2/3 of whom were Cornell hockey fans.</p>

<p>A few weeks after the last BU hockey game, Cornell played basketball in Madison Square Garden, against Davidson and St. John’s (NYC). Attendance for those games was under 6,000, with a relatively small Cornell contingent.</p>

<p>At home, basketball attendance has doubled since the team started getting good, yet it averages just 2/3 capacity.</p>

<p>Look, it’s nice that the spectator-sports oriented folks there have yet another team to chear for, but to claim that this changed the culture there somehow, provided an element that just wasn’t already there before, is just plain wrong. I’ve linked footage from those hockey games before. Hockey has been there, in force, before basketball, and in all likelihood it will still be there after the basketball program gets back to its sustainable reality. Hockey may not be a “major sport” to you, or highly popular nationally, but it is a “major sport” at Cornell, and popular there, and has provided a social aspect of spectator athletics for those who want that kick, for years now.</p>

<p>Spectator sports aside, Cornell has a large and active intramural athletics program which provides a social aspect of the athletic life for their many students who participate in intramurals . </p>

<p>There are also various other strong athletics teams, which someone may choose to watch. And lacrosse is also quite good, and does get a decent spectator sports following there.</p>

<p>The issue is, you cannot see the distinction betweeen “athletics” and “basketlball and/or football, period”. You use these to mean the same thing. But to to some other people they are not identically the same thing. You cannot understand how someone can have a good time in athletics if they are not watching basketball or football. Well guess what, some people can, and do.</p>

117

<p>Most of the comments about Ivy sports hve been partially inaccurate. For example, saying the Ivies lack a sports tradition suggests the poster is unaware that the Ivies started college football and they are among the few folleges which offer a separate intercollegiate team for lighterweight players (“sprint football”). The football Heisman trophy is named after a Penn coach and Ivy players won it frequently before the Ivies decided to step out of the sports recruiting arms race in the 1950’s.</p>

<p>Very few universities match Penn in total basketball wins. Harvard-Yale is as intense a rivalry as exists. Penn-Princeton is also an intense rivalry, especially in basketball; Cornell and Harvard are usual hockey powers; Princeton won one or more recent national lacrosse championships; the Ivies are often dominant in crew; and have also been very successful in soccer.</p>

<p>Ivy students are not deprived of opportunities to watch exciting athletic events and are often enthusiastic spectators, but I agree that the average Penn State student is far more likely to have chosen a college on the basis of going to football games than the average Penn student.</p>

<p>No, you will not see Ivy teams playing in football bowl games or basketball final four games. However, the Ivies have among the largest number of intercollegiate teams (Harvard was ranked first until a cutback last year) and very active club and intramural programs.</p>

<p>In general, the Ivies value sports opportunities for men and women very highly, but do not worship jock culture or prostituet themselves for it, with separate jock dorms, girls travelling hundreds of miles (as done by Tennessee) to recruit high school players, or requiring (or even allowing) football players to sit out their freshman year so they can work on weightlifting.</p>

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<p>Graduation. Is that really the defining metric here? Dexter Manley graduated from college and later admitted he was illiterate.</p>

<p>The real question is: are the basketball players at Duke or the defensive linemen at Notre Dame or some other highly touted physical specimen that gets full ride offers across the country at the same academic level as the respective student bodies at large? No. A resounding no. They are absolutely not. There is a clear and present double standard. Let me say it out loud: once you sell out, there is no going back. It becomes a very slippery slope to the notorious UNLV basketball program or “the U” Miami Hurricanes football program of the 80s (side note: the ESPN 30 for 30 film about the U was excellent, I highly recommend checking it out). </p>

<p>Now conversely, you have the Ivy League – a league which should be credited not disparaged (which oddly seems to be the convenient pinata on CC) for recognizing and keeping academics the number one priority. It is still (and will always be) the absolute gold standard when it comes to scholar athletes. PERIOD.</p>

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<p>John Heisman played his first two years at Brown, his last two collegiate years at Penn.</p>

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<p>You don’t have to go that far back to find some serious Ivy sports excellence. People still wax eloquent about the epic NCAA Final Four in 1979 when Magic Johnson’s Michigan State team defeated Larry Bird’s Indiana State team. Some people also recall that the third team in that tournament was Mark Aquirre’s De Paul team. What most people don’t remember is that the fourth team in that Final Four was Penn. And they got to the final four without (so far as we know) the benefit of offering athletic scholarships or subverting their own academic standards.</p>

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<p>Ivy League programs especially
Lacrosse, Basketball, Hockey and Football have long admitted student athletes with lower academic qualifications than regular students. It’s not like anything groundbreaking is occurring. Heck Princeton even has an offense named after it. Schools like Georgetown run it because the coach is a Princeton graduate</p>

<p>What’s the big deal if they place a little bit more emphasis on recruiting elite basketball players?</p>

<p>Why shouldn’t an elite basketball player with 1100 SAT’s have the same shot at an Ivy education as an elite lacrosse player with the same test scores? The Ivy’s are already sacrificing some of their academic standards to field competitive teams for non-revenue sports (lacrosse, hockey,etc.) they might as well invest in some revenue generating sports that further enhance the campus life.</p>