<p>The “graduation success rate” for men’s basketball at Michigan was pretty low (46%). Football was better (70%) but the NCAA’s “graduation success rate” is higher than the real graduation rate because transfers count as graduates. Go figure.</p>
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<p>He should. But to me, the more salient question is why an elite lacrosse player with 1100 SAT’s should have a shot at an Ivy education at all.</p>
<p>My reasoning is that lacrosse is a predominantly white upper middle class suburban sport. Lacrosse players generally do not lack for educational opportunities and resources. In fact, they tend to come from elite prep schools or strong public school districts. </p>
<p>Shouldn’t the bar be set higher for these students of relative privilege? I mean, 1100 SAT’s are barely above average in the general population and well below average for those who come from similar backgrounds. This seems to be a lot to compromise for what is mostly a low-profile regional sport.</p>
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<p>That an athlete can already get into an Ivy League school with significantly lower academic qualifications is a sad but well-known fact. What is groundbreaking here is that it looks like they are willing to go even lower still for the sake of a winning basketball team.</p>
<p>They are no longer at the top of the slippery slope that leads to athletic recruiting scandals. They have actually started to slide down it a bit. And some people are willing to look the other way for the sake of a few more wins.</p>
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There are league limits on how many kids they can take at certain academic levels so either Harvard has changed priorities and is using more of the lower AI recruits for bball or in the past they did not use the league allowed breaks the league allows and now they are. In either case any IVY league of NESCAC school recruit is far from NCAA minimum and virtually all are within range of some of the regular admits.</p>
<p>^^Saying that Ivy League standards are above the NCAA minimum is like bragging that you are taller than a dwarf. And saying that nearly all athletes manage to squeeze into the bottom end of the academic range, the part of the range populated by the developmental admits and famous people’s kids, is hardly something to crow about.</p>
<p>The 4-year average graduation rate (federal definition) for men’s D-I basketball was 46% and for football it was 54%. Only half graduate despite the fact that D-I athletes get special tutoring. Seems low. I think a lot of unqualified students are being accepted. Source: NCAA website.</p>
<p>Rome had their gladiators too, after all.</p>
<p>coureur, it’s an imperfect world. what are you gonna do?</p>
<p>in an imperfect world, give me the Ivy standard which has done an admirable job in preserving the academic reputations of its respective members.</p>
<p>because in the end, going to a school with an outstanding football or basketball team that takes home the championship is nice, but when the confetti has fallen and the cheers have faded, I’d much rather have a degree from a school that commands immediate respect for its academic reputation rather than for its prowess in the arena.</p>
<p>Awww, but then you won’t have all the Fun! Of the Tailgate! And the Social Scene!</p>
<p>the_prestige - I agree with everything you wrote in post #128. Winning the the Big Game is great fun, but not at the expense of turning the phrase “student athlete” into a joke.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl - Harvard and Yale have a tradition great tailgate parties before their big football game every year. And they’ve managed to do it while offering no athletic scholarships and enforcing reasonably strict academic standards on their players. Having high standards is no deterrent to having fun.</p>
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The thing is that it seems the fact that the Ivy League is letting in athletes who are above-average students but nonetheless probably unqualified to attend is merely an afterthought when you’ve got the more mainstream schools like FSU committing complete academic fraud (and even they get away with it without too much publicity). Not that I like what the Ivies do for their big-time sports, but it all really pales in comparison to schools that flat-out violate NCAA standards.</p>
<p>[YouTube</a> - OTL: Florida State Academic Scandal](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoNWN2p6Zr0]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoNWN2p6Zr0)</p>
<p>^^Yeah, I know. Like I’ve been saying, mainstream college sport is a toxic waste dump. And the Ivy League has been a small and relatively clean island in the middle of that mess. And I’m hoping it stays that way. But some argue that the Ivy League would be improved if it joined the race to the bottom.</p>
<p>I completely agree, coureur! I was joshin’ with Hawkette’s traditional assertion that the best tailgates are those where there are umpteen thousand people in the stadiums, it’s the biggest event for miles around, and the game is nationally televised / nationally relevant. I see no reason why a HY tailgate would be any less fun for a spectator.</p>
<p>p’girl,
We agree!! The Harvard-Yale tailgates usually involve crowds of 30-50,000 fans which makes for a palpably different feel than the usual high school-like attendance that you find at most Ivy games. Go to a U Penn game at Franklin Field, a Princeton game at Palmer, a Brown game at Brown stadium, a Dartmouth game at Memorial, etc. with 7000 fans and it’s not even close. </p>
<p>If you think that the HY game carries a lot of energy and is a ton of fun, imagine having that 5-6x every fall!! Btw, you can….at Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and Notre Dame (and frequently Rice, too).</p>
<p>pretige,
Re your comment, </p>
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<p>I like your argument. Why? Because one of the beauties of the Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame group is that they can play in the Big Game, enjoy the confetti drop, AND offer a degree that commands respect for its academic reputation. Pretty sweet, huh!!</p>
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<p>Once again, Duke’s football scene is not something to strive to recreate. According to ESPN Duke’s football enthusiasm and stadium life was ranked dead last in the ACC, and Duke ranked last in the ACC and 78th nationally in football attendance last year, averaging 26,000 fans per game. </p>
<p>[ACC</a> Blog - ESPN](<a href=“http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/index/_/count/61]ACC”>ACC Blog- ESPN)</p>
<p>Meanwhile, over 50,000 fans packed the Yale Bowl last year to watch the annual Harvard-Yale football game. </p>
<p>Duke certainly offers a terrific model of academic balance and athletic success when its basketball team is considered, but it still has a ways to go before its football program is anything that the Ivies (or anyone, for that matter) should envy.</p>
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Agree about the NCAA minimum standards comment totally.</p>
<p>The IVY League (and NESCAC) rules are nothing like the NCAA rules and, imo, not like your post either …
- The number of athletic recruits allowed to have below average admissions stats is not the full roster
*Of those getting a break the majority (it’s more than 50% but I can’t remember the number) need to be in the first AI band below the average admit (this is essentially the first standard deviation below average) a band which about 30% of the regualr admits will also be in - Then a fair number (25%) can be in the second AI band below the average admit<br>
- And a handful (I believe less than 10) in total across all sports can be in the 3rd AI band below the average admit … given Harvard has something like 35 varsity sports this is far from a ton of kids
- The AI ranges are determined by school … so Harvard’s are harsher than Cornell’s for example.
- The overall effect is far from “nearly all athletes manage to squeeze into the bottom end of the academic range” … while I certainly understand complaints about athletic admits the IVYs haven’t exactly totally sold out.</p>
<p>Interestingly, to me, athletic recruiting is a bigger issue at a small LAC … while the recruiting rules may be similar the atheltic population is a higher percantage of students on campus (often a significant %) so even the “small” break for a bunch of recruits can influence the overall class.</p>
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<p>For those people who aren’t actually into the sports and are just going to socialize, being in the stands with a couple thousand people can be just as much fun as being in the stands with thousands and thousands – because it’s the fun of hanging out with friends that is what counts. You can only talk to so many people around you – you can’t talk to 40,000 people! Not everyone sees the distinction of more people at the game = more fun that you do. The great thing is, those who do already know about the schools that are part of bigger conferences, and will take that in account when making decisions. The Ivies have no shortage of applicants, so one must assume it isn’t all that important to their applicants, else they wouldn’t apply there.</p>