<p>Let me suggest you look at the thread entitled Impostant: FAQ Link and get started there.
Best of luck, your son sounds vey special!
xxx,Mary Anna</p>
<p>OK, I know that The Juilliard School does not offer MT. But because I have seen Juilliard (and auditions for Juilliard) discussed on this list, I think it's fair to bring that school up in this thread. Isn't it true that Juilliard considers auditions and, perhaps, interviews 100% and hardly looks at a student's transcripts, or is that a rumor/myth? I tried looking up the average admitted student's SAT and ACT scores on collegeboard.com, and there is a blank there. </p>
<p>By the way, this is a very interesting thread, and I am sure I am not the only person who thinks so! I learned, for instance, that I misunderstood the process of admission for most MT BFA programs. By the time my own D is at this point, I may even be able to claim to understand it! :) :)</p>
<p>Lisa</p>
<p>Juilliard is different in this respect and most of it is based on the audition. They do not require standardized tests to apply, for example. They do require HS transcripts or college transcripts (depending on your age and education level). I think this stands to reason even if at a minimal level of consideration just to validate the educational background or that the student was not flunking or actually obtained a HS diploma and/or went to college, etc. I think the audition counts for most of the decision at Juilliard but you still have to present materials to apply. I don't think any school would take someone blindly without some official documentation of their past or their previous education. Circle in the Square Theater School also has pretty minimal application requirements and the audition is the main part of the admissions decision, I believe. Academics is not a factor but you likely have to present a transcript, etc. No standardized tests, again.</p>
<p>Juilliard did not want any standardized test scores, but we sent them anyway. They made it optional, I believe. Then when they waitlisted D, she had taken the tests over in that time and the scores had gone way up. D called them to offer them these new test scores during the "waitlist" time period, but they still had no use for them.</p>
<p>I might have mentioned this before, but I personally know an EXTREMELY talented girl who auditioned to NYU ED. She is an honors student (honor roll/ honor society) and she did NOT get in. When her guidance counselor called, she was told that it was her SAT scores; a little too low. Her audition was very impressive, but her SAT scores kept her out. IMHO, if someone is going to get rejected based on SAT scores, why put them through the audition to begin with? I think the way UMich does it makes more sense. What does everyone else think? I suppose if it's between 2 equally talented people and one had 1350 SATs and the other had 1200 they'd take the 1350,( other things being equal) but it seems to me they (NYU) used an absolute bar for the SAT scores. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>rossji, did the people at NYU tell the girl's counselor that she would have gotten into the program she auditioned for, if only her SAT scores were higher? In other words, did they indicate that she had impressed them at the audition and would have been in had her scores been higher? I guess I am asking how you know her audition was "very impressive." (Not doubting that it was, just wondering how you know that. Did the NYU official come out and say that?)</p>
<p>LDE</p>
<p>I personally like the way UM handles the issue of grades and test scores. Why put the student through the audition if a test score is going to keep them out?</p>
<p>Given the expenses and angst involved, I agree that if the school has an absolute bar for academics, and the student can't meet that bar, it would be kinder to screen the academics prior to traveling for the audition.</p>
<p>Conversely, I'm curious to know at what point more schools may start requiring some sort of pre-audition video to screen potential auditionees. I believe a few do it now, and given the massive numbers of auditions some of these schools see, I'm surprised more aren't doing something to screen. You may not be able to decide who you want based on a video - but you can certainly decide some that you wouldn't need to see in person! </p>
<p>Although it would be devastating to not be able to audition based on academics, or pre-screening, in the long run, I think it would be better than wasting hundreds of dollars to attend an audition that could in no way yield a positive result.</p>
<p>"Impressive" was MY word, but the implication was that she would have gotten in if her SAT scores were higher. Thus, her audition must have been "impressive" (at least enough so that she'd have been accepted!) And I have seen this girl perform; she is absolutely amazing, both acting-wise and singing-wise. Do we know for sure that admissions would admit that an audition wasn't "up to snuff?" Of course not, but I would be absolutely SHOCKED if that were the case in this instance because of the girl's talent. In fact, if I had the money, I'd bet a million on this one!</p>
<p>It is no secret that NYU weighs academics 50% of the decision. It is also no secret that NYU as a university (not talking Tisch itself or the BFA program) is selective with approx. a 28% admit rate. Candidates to colleges ALL THE TIME apply to ones that are very "reachy" for them and they may not be appropriate candidates in the ball park, but still try anyway. I don't know if you guys read the other forums on CC but time after time there are students who post their "stats" and have a college list full of Ivy League schools but do not really have adequate stats for those schools' published admission stats. The "prescreening" to some degree must be on the shoulders of the students and their families. There are students and parents out there that no matter what, apply to many schools that are not in their range. They are not realistic. It is OK to have reach schools but they should be SOMEWHAT in reach and it is important to have a balanced list of schools in terms of one's OWN odds of admissions. I have clients who will say they want NYU for instance and have 1000 on the SATs, not demanding course loads or the requisite classes, have mediocre or poor GPAs and they just do not want to "hear" that they are not a viable candidate for that school and there are other wonderful schools where they stand a chance based on their credentials/qualifications (frankly this is true talent wise too but that is more subjective). So, in the case of RossJi's friend, a 1200 is on the low side for NYU. A kid can get in with it but the odds are weaker in that range than for stronger stats. This particular kid's counselor called to get feedback...the feedback was the SAT was not strong enough. Who knows if she'd have gotten in with a stronger SAT? They look at the whole package. When you have a highly selective program like CAP21 that accepts about 6% or so, you are gonna have MORE qualified people both artistically and academically than slots available so that ultimately different pieces of your package will be compared to others and some will get the admit and some won't. I know someone who got into CAP with lower SATs than that friend but know many who had higher ones and who are talented but did not get in. You can't truly point to just the one thing. People are looking for "answers" as to why they did not get in. But many factors go into it and very talented kids DO get turned away. It is very competitive. This girl took a chance in applying there with a 1200 SAT and it might have been OK but the odds were far greater that it wouldn't get her in than it would based on the profile for this school. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Susan,
As usual you bring up some very good points.</p>
<p>I want to add one other thing to think about.</p>
<p>It's not just about "getting in" or whether or not you are appling to a school that is a reach academically.
It's about, if you get in, would you WANT that rigorous academic atmosphere. I think these kids loose sight of that.</p>
<p>If you are at Tisch and want to make your mark there, you had better think about whether your grades would also make the mark. It is a rare student who can achieve high marks in both areas. (Susan your amazing daughter is an exception).</p>
<p>I think most kids would find a very demanding BFA program PLUS academically rigorous gen ed classes to be a difficult road.
I try and encourage my students to think about that when making decisions about which schools to apply to. Not that some of them haven't done it and done it successfully. I just wanted to bring that up as an important consideration.</p>
<p>xxx,Mary Anna</p>
<p>Mary Anna, I agree with your point that those who are trying to get into colleges that academically are a far reach for their qualifications, even if they do get in, need to think about if they can handle the rigor of the academic courses. I'm not even talking BFA students now but just in general. You have to be able to succeed at the college you go to, not just get admitted to it. </p>
<p>While I appreciate your positive take on my D, she truthfully is not exceptional by being a strong academic student and strong in performing arts. I know lots of friends of hers where I could say the same thing. Just starting with her friends from theater camp alone, many are also excellent students, not just talented artistically. In fact, I am struck at how many of them are also exceptional students. Some have opted to not do a BFA program and have gone onto schools like Yale, Harvard, Brown, Cornell, Vassar, Penn, Tufts. These were kids capable of getting into a BFA progam but chose this different route. One example is my D's friend from camp who attends Brown and is now playing the role of Mark on the National Tour of RENT. That kid is a brilliant academic, just ask my other D who goes to college with him. He has written musicals put on at Brown and also majors in classics. My D's classmates at Tisch, MANY are really very good students yet so talented. Most she knows have been standouts in their home communities on stage, etc. In many ways, those who have the work ethic in academics, are very good candidates for a rigorous BFA program given what it takes to do one. Also they are good at time management, having excelled in demanding courses in high school, yet training and doing shows, etc. to all hours every afternoon, night and weekend in performing arts (particularly if they didn't go to a performing arts HS and had to supplement school with all this on their own time). </p>
<p>In any case, selecting the college list has to be done carefully....both in terms of one's academic stats and talent considerations, but also in which type of environment one would best thrive. In addition, each student should have thought about which criteria/preferences they have in a college because it is about FIT. Too many kids are caught up on a "name" school and not about which school is right for THEM. That's what I try to help with. I get much pleasure from students with whom I work who actually revise their initial college list and take suggestions and in fact, their lists are way more appropriate now after we have worked together and I think they have a better chance of a successful outcome. Sometimes, it helps to have an outside person give a realistic picture of a student's chances because well, parents can't be as objective, if you know what I mean. Kids will come to me and say, "I want NYU, CCM, or CMU" and the kid has NO chance, and doesn't remotely meet the requirements to get in academically alone and thankfully upon hearing it from someone outside the family, is able to revise the list to one that is more appropriate. I'm all for reaching for the stars, but you have to be within reach SOMEWHAT or pick different stars. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Susan,
I am smiling now because your modesty and naivete deceive you. You do not realize how extraordinary your daughter and her friends are in the grand scheme of the general student population. I don't think you have seen the spectrum that I have seen in my coaching.</p>
<p>I am glad for those wonderful examples, but I can assure you they are the exception and not the norm. The Browns and NYUs who are also gifted artists are not your average student. Yes, they exist, and I have those kinds of students occasionally, but they are exceptional and not at all typical.</p>
<p>But how lucky you are that your daughter can count herself in that group. I know many here would love to make that claim. I applaud her.</p>
<p>Best to your daughter, her gifted friends and to all others who aspire to achieve great things. They all have our support and praise.</p>
<p>xxx,Mary Anna</p>
<p>Mary Anna,
You are being kind and I thank you. I understand what you mean in terms of the general student population. My children attended a rural public school. One third of our HS student body doesn't even go on to college. I know you must see some very good students as your kids have gone to a well regarded private prep school. We have some very good students at our HS as well but they are not as much the norm as in a private school like yours. In some private schools or some publics in certain areas of the country, numerous kids go on to very selective colleges. Not so here. Perhaps a few each year go to the most selective type colleges. For instance, the year my older D went to Brown, she was the only kid in the entire HS to go to ANY Ivy League school that year. So, I DO see the spectrum. It goes from that down to no college at all here in our community. I also was an elementary teacher for many years and so I am very aware of the general student population. I have taught at five different colleges and these have included community college and some less selective colleges as well. So, I do know what you mean. </p>
<p>However, there are LOTS of kids like mine and so mine are not unique in terms of academic qualifications or other talents. The pool of applicants to selective colleges is full of kids like this....too full, LOL, making it so difficult to be admitted no matter how qualified. The elite college admissions process was like that for D1 and the BFA admissions process was like that for D2. If you ever read the student forums on CC, you will be astounded by how many amazing students there are out there! That's what I meant in my earlier post. My kids are not exceptional that way...there are LOTS like them. While they may stand out locally, I was saying that my younger D (since we are talking theater kids now) has lots of friends in theater who are also very good students academically. And now, of course, IN college, there are lots more she has met like that. I am aware that some who pursue theater are not strong academically but that is true in lots of things. If you read CC forums, people will say that about athletes....how they must have gotten into college based on their athletic skill....yet I have a D who was a three varsity sport athlete but was NOT a recruited athlete for college so didn't get in as an athlete but now is on one varsity team and one club team at her college. You can be good at sports and still be good at academics. In her graduating HS class, almost every kid in the top ten in the class was also a varsity sport athlete. Now, at her Ivy, on her varsity team, there are lots of smart girls, more than half are pre med. You can be smart and also be good at some other talent, be it the arts or sports, etc. And for some, their talents lie in just one area, and that's cool too. I would imagine at your prep school, you must see kids who excel at academics but also something outside the classroom. I would have thought you'd see more of that in your school than we do here. By the same token, last year, two kids from my D's graduating class went on for a BFA in MT (it is pretty unusual here) but the other girl, a good friend of my D's actually, was also salutatorian of the class. She went onto Emerson. </p>
<p>So, yes, I realize these kids, or my own, are not average students, but by the same token, they are not unique and there are lots of really qualified kids out there and so it makes it hard to get into some of these schools. But there are so many wonderful schools out there and there is a school for every kid who wants to go to college. It is just about finding the school that you are well suited to and that fits you. There is surely more than one school where you can thrive and be happy and if kids could just realize that and be open to many different options and not just seek out name schools, so to speak, that would be good. I think all kids need support and all are worthy. And most are destined to do great things if they work toward their goals. Nothing comes easily, that's for sure. The one thing I cared about for my kids with college admissions, was not which school they got into but only that they got into a school that they'd be happy to go to and end up being happy once there and for that, I am grateful as both my kids truly adore where they are at right now. As a parent, that is what it is about, not which school they go to. I hope kids also can see it that way. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>As a mother of two MT children who have incredible IQ's (based on documented test results) yet, have no academic records to back it!! I have to agree that the kids that both are talented and qualify for schools like Brown and NYU are the rare minority. It has been such a pleasure to correspond with others on this board that are more in the "norm". Most of the "elite" schools discussed here are not within the reach of most of the MT hopefuls that are out there. Carnegie Mellon, NYU, Michigan, even many state schools have raised their academic standards beyond what many very talented and very smart MT kids can evidence. It is so nice to hear from parents, students, and professionals that bring a balanced view to this crazy world of "arts" that we are all treading in. I would like to say to all out there that if your child does not have a resume as long as your arm, and is not in NYU, CMU, Brown, Yale or the like....then they are more in the mainstream than you may realize.....I think that sometimes we judge the world based on the bubble we live in......there are alot of bigger bubbles out there.....</p>
<p>Juilliard does not ever want standardized test scores. They only want a transcript after a call-back, if there is a call-back.</p>
<p>Several schools require academic papers to be in at least by the time of the audition if not a month or more before the audition. </p>
<p>Syracuse was the opposite of UM. Syracuse goes through the audition process first, then sends to the admissions office who they recommend from the auditions, then admissions decides who they will accept based on the other application information.</p>
<p>I am very impressed by the way Michigan does their academic screening first because that is a priority for them. It surprises me that if NYU is focused 50% on academics that they do not do this as well. My d has known quite a few kids who did not have the academics for NYU but applied anyway thinking their audition may override any academic weakness. It does seem like a waste of everyone's time and money. If a school is auditioning 1000 kids and some don't even make the academic cut, why not weed them out first save yourself the time and let the prospective students save the time and money for travel expenses? In other schools where the acadamics are not such a priority, I understand. I do know that some schools can put kids through if their audition is THAT GOOD even if they don't make the standards. NYU doesn't seem to do too much of that, if at all.</p>
<p>I have to agree with gottaluvmt. If a school weighs academics along with the audition (and it seems to me they SHOULD) it seems unethical to me for them to have the kids go to the expense of audition fees, travel, not to mention stress, to attend an audition for a school they will not be accepted to academically. Seems easy enough to evaluate a kid academically BEFORE the audition (as long as the application has been submitted) and render an academic decision. Everyone of the 8 schools my D applied to has done this with no apparent problem. (No, she did NOT apply to NYU, didn't want to go to college in the BIG city, LOL!) That being said, it is of course up to the STUDENT to make sure their apps are submitted well before their scheduled audition! If that is done, I don't understand the decision on the part of the admissions office to allow the kid to go through with the audition knowing full well they'd never accept them into the university! Isn't there enough stress and angst in this process already for these poor kids? Even the one pure conservatory (not part of a larger university) that D applied to, told the kids upfront (during the school tour) that they needed to send their applications in early because they had to be evaluated academically BEFORE the audition date was approved! Really, what's so hard about that??</p>
<p>NYU gets more applicants for its drama program than probably any other school, generally between 2000-3000 each year. Unlike other schools, the only auditions they do prior to January 15 (the application deadline), are the E.D. ones. Yes, I suppose they could change their entire system and require applications be in in October in order to have a prescreening process but with those numbers, it would be impossible to prescreen prior to allotting audition slots. Scheduling of auditions begins for R.D. kids on November 1. </p>
<p>Also, keep in mind that Tisch is made up of eight primary studios, and CAP21 is only ONE of those. The majority of kids in Tisch's drama department are not in the MT studio. So, the dilemma is, do you only prescreen the CAP21 applicants? That wouldn't make any sense because the majority of kids who are auditioning for CAP, have a second choice studio indicated when they audition, and also, there are several hundred students auditioning who are not interested in MT. </p>
<p>Yes, academics count 50% in the admissions process but there is always some flexibility there. NYU does not set academic 'bars', or minimums, which have been mentioned here. My guess is that with the size of the program, Tisch has the ability to take a few kids whose academics may not be totally up to par with the majority of kids who are there. I know that my D has a few friends who certainly did not have the academic stats that she and most of her classmates did. When you are accepting kids for eight studios, there may be room for a couple in each whose test scores might not be in the middle 50%.</p>
<p>I think saying that this type of set-up is unethical is absolutely wrong. There is a personal responsibility on the part of students and parents to do their research and make their own decisions as to where they are going to apply for college. The fact that each school has somewhat different requirements and parameters is no secret. Certainly the fact that Tisch weighs the academic and artistic reviews equally is also no secret. Why is it any different than regular college admissions as to compiling a list of reasonably possible choices? If people don't do their research, that isn't the fault of any particular college. The college decision is an important one, one which has the potential for costing a couple of hundred thousand dollars. If people aren't willing to spend the time researching schools, then I think the responsibility lies with them, not with the colleges' admissions policies.</p>
<p>Perhaps unethical was too strong a word. With that many applicants I suppose it would be difficult to evaluate them ALL academically, prior to auditions. However, many huge state universities, also with thousands of applicants (I'm not talking BFA, here, just ordinary BA admittance) applying early action, for instance, do manage to render their academic decisions by mid Nov or Dec for these applicants who apply early. Now if someone doesn't want to take the iniative to apply early, I certainly understand having to wait on an academic decision until after their audition. I guess I'm just feeling symathetic towards those few who apparently were told that artistically they made it, but not academically -- especially since it's so challenging to pass the artistic revue! Just kind of heartbreaking..... And BTW I'm certainly NOT pointing fingers at NYU (it's a great school, we know some very "happy campers" at both Tisch and Steinhardt), I believe the original post mentioned USC as well, and if memory serves me I believe that Soozie has mentioned before that none of the schools her BFA D applied to rendered academic acceptances prior to overall acceptance. I'm just saying that since it is a two-tier application & audition process for the kids; it would be nice if it was a corresponding two-tier process for the schools as well. </p>
<p>That being said, I am in TOTAL agreement that it is up to the student (and their parents, who are assumedly PAYING for all these apps) to completely research and evaluate their chances at a school before sending in an application! </p>
<p>Sometimes wishful thinking and crossed fingers just aren't enough!!</p>