Average School's BA vs Minor from U Mich?

<p>Hi guys! I have a couple new questions. To my understanding, at least when you apply for your first job, they can see what classes you took. So even if a minor only requires 15 credits lets say, they'll see if you took 30 credits instead.</p>

<p>If you've seen my previous thread, I wanted to go to UMich because it's in-state and cheap and is strong in many areas, so if I for some chance do find something else besides music I have a passion for, I can have that option of changing directions, while being able to take piano lessons from the supposedly good music program.</p>

<p>I know that many BAs in Music go to Grad school to continue music, or switch into BMs, or dual-degree, and I've read here about some who have been able to find music jobs with a BA, and that you don't "need" a BM.</p>

<p>So the question is: Is there a significant difference in terms of finding a job if you have a BA vs a Minor, and in what ways?</p>

<p>Let's talk about the BA where you get 50% or 75% music credits, not the ones where it's only 25% music and 75% humanities (or do those find music jobs too without further education?), and from a "decent" school/department at best (where you wouldn't have to be exceptional to pass an audition to get in), compared to a Music Minor at University of Michigan, which is supposedly a good or top music school.</p>

<p>2nd question: Considering I take the 30 minute piano lessons every semester from UM, and take the music minor and take as many music classes as I want to help prepare me to the best level possible, is there a significant difference vs taking a BA in music where 50% of the classes are music from a school that isn't as good nor rich as UM, in terms of preparing me for getting a grad degree in music or possibly even transferring to a full BM program (even if it's at a new and/or is a weaker program?</p>

<p>(I plan on getting at least a music minor to keep music careers possible, and if I take a BA, it would likely be a dual degree that would fit well with a BA in music).</p>

<p>Once again, thanks so much in advance!</p>

<p>Nobody finds music jobs, period.</p>

<p>What a terrible response to a perfectly reasonable post. ^^ Plenty of people find music jobs. Not everyone gets the glamorous performance job but there are music jobs everywhere, as hard as they may be to obtain.</p>

<p>xD</p>

<p>And yeah I’m not talking about performance. Maybe if I was a world-wide performer, it would be enjoyable/fun. But I don’t think that’s my cup of tea. It would involve a lot of pressure and all that. Plus I’m really not the kind to show off. Composing or teaching is what I’m thinking of. Doing a performance once in a while might be fun, but not mainly or mostly that ^_^;</p>

<p>@oldccuser That’s a ludicrous statement and completely unnecessary, as well as patently untrue. But to all those who worry about it - check out this thread: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Hi everyone,</p>

<p>Write me back once you or your child has found said music job.</p>

<p>;)</p>

<p>Well oldcuser…mine supports herself, lives away from home performing and teaching. Her room mate, another music performance grad, works for Sony Music. It takes a lot of effort, talent and tenacity. You might try it yourself one day.</p>

<p>Yoshi, what kind of music job are you hoping for? </p>

<p>Seems to me that a potential employer would be more interested in your skill set than in how many classes you’ve taken or how they are labelled (major/minor). Sure, the names of the classes may provide a hint about your skills (say you took “Intro to Studio Recording” or “Advanced Bagpipe Performance”) but they probably would want to see evidence of your recording skills or mad kilt wearing bagpipe cadenzas before hiring you anyway.</p>

<p>oldccuser,</p>

<p>My daughter lives in a major east coast city several hours away from us. Less than three years beyond her undergrad degree, she is supporting herself entirely on the basis of being a self-employed musician with no help from us. She plays an average of ten to fifteen paid gigs per month with several different established small groups in styles ranging from early music to bluegrass and from klezmer to hip hop. She also writes original material for some of her groups, freelances and teaches private students. She does not have a non-musical day job. It may not be easy, but it is not impossible.</p>

<p>@stradmom</p>

<p>Ah, thank you! Ideally, to be a Band Teacher and/or Composer, with some performances on the side (or perhaps just a popular youtube channel ^^… have to do something in the summer vacation right?)</p>

<p>I wasn’t sure if they paid too much attention to the names or not. So when you apply for a music job, it’s similar to auditioning for a college eh? You have to show them how good you are in addition to showing them your grades and what classes you took, what degree you have, etc.</p>

<p>With this, I can be more content going to UM even if I will never make it into the BM program, since I can still take the lower division classes ^0^ and piano lessons.</p>

<p>to be a band teacher you need a music Ed degree</p>

<p>stop trolling</p>

<p>oldccuser is correct, afaik schools require an education certification, usually obtained via a music education degree, either undergraduate or graduate. With a BA, you could certainly open a private studio or teach at a music school, and still have those performance and composition opportunities on the side. I’m not up on the details of Michigan state law, however, so you might want to double check that.</p>

<p>Yup I’m aware of that, and thanks for considering that I might not have known, but judging from oldccuser’s quite insulting and arrogant posts from earlier, he’s just trying to ■■■■■ and/or sound like a smart alec from his bad posts and now he writes a short one-liner with half of the truth… sounds like he’s just messing around in these forums for fun.</p>

<p>Anyways I’m aware you need a degree OR an accepted certification in Michigan, I called him a ■■■■■ more for his older posts, and because what he said doesn’t address even vaguely what I was trying to find out earlier. Also because what he said earlier and says now clearly contradict each other.</p>

<p>And just fyi if anyone’s wondering I plan on transferring into a full BM program (either switch schools or just switch programs), and if not, then I’ll make sure I dual-degree a BA in music + something else and/or get a masters in some kind of music profession. That’s why I asked the 2nd question in my OP ^^</p>

<p>@oldcusser-my D is a junior VP major at a top tier school and does quite well with her paying church soloist and section leader positions and the additional recital and other paying gigs she picks up. Sorry that it didn’t go as well for you or your son or daughter, but it serves no purpose to be rude or to provide inaccurate information. No one said that it was going to be easy, but it can be done.</p>

<p>

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<p>Yoshi, there are elements to your post that concern me and that suggest you require some vocational counseling with respect to music professions. I am hoping to be helpful, as I am very familiar with UMich in particular and the area in general. </p>

<p>First off, IMHO, there is really no comparison between a music minor from LSA and a BMUS from the School of Music at U. Mich, the latter of which DOES NOT OFFER MINORS. That’s not to say your own talent, drive and skill set couldn’t be applied to musical endeavors or professions in the future…but just that no employer is going to say "Wow a minor in music from UMich – (and compare it to the BMus or BA SOM degrees) if they know anything about music :wink: </p>

<p>First off, UMich LSA has so many general distribution requirements, you’re not likely to rack up as many music credits as you’re thinking; secondly, as an LSA music minor, you would not be allowed to participate in the sequential SOM-only classes that comprise pretty much 90% of the SOM offerings.</p>

<p>UMich is great and while it’s true that you <em>can</em> or <em>might</em> get some of the same studio instruction via a LSA minor, you are 3rd in line to get it (after the discipline majors and then music but instrument non-majors) and as a result are unlikely to get the top drawer profs. The few courses that offered for non-majors IMHO simply aren’t as in-depth as the SOM major sequences are (nor need they be, since the BMUS is professional track and the minor/LSA/BA are not).</p>

<p>So with respect to both composition AND teaching, each are professions wherein there are specific degree sequences that both make vocational sense and are generally or reasonably expected. And both those avenues are via the School of Music, not LSA.</p>

<p>So, while I understand you love UMich, if you are passionate about pursuing a career in either music education OR composition – I strongly, strongly advise you to apply to some of the other excellent music programs in Michigan NOW (Western, Michigan State, Grand Valley all have decent programs) rather than settling for a minor – or take a gap year to expand your options in the event you’re too late to the party for fall 2012. </p>

<p>Unless you have lots of money, I also would not recommend going off to school with the INTENT to transfer. Transferring INTO a BMUS almost ALWAYS costs you an extra semester or even year at the end of the day, due to the very specific set of requirements that you would not be able to fulfill as a minor because you were not accepted into the SOM (eg. Theory.)</p>

<p>Also, you can’t just “dual degree” with a BA in music – getting a UMich dual degree means being accepted to the School of Music AND LSA, and fulfilling the degree requirements of each. With the exception of the Bachelor of Musical Arts, which is a BA type program at the SOM which encourages cognate areas of study, most of the SOM degree programs are BFAs or BMUS or (engineering) BSc. So please don’t take for granted this is just something you can decide to do once you get there. You have to be selected via audition or interview/portfolio, just like you have to this year.
Hope that helps give you some food for thought.
Best wishes!</p>

<p>Oh, thanks a lot for the heads up! I guess I should have called and asked them specifically what classes I could take. I couldn’t find that specific info online so I assumed both that I would have a lot of credits I can use towards a music minor and that there would be enough useful classes for me to take.</p>

<p>If I may ask, can you clarify the part about not being able to take the sequential classes?
On the music minor page [LSAmusic:</a> minor](<a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>Office of Budget and Planning) it sounds like you can take the basic music theory classes, and it also says at least 2 elective courses must be in the 300 level or above. I can’t seem to find any information on course descriptions in the SoM page, do you think you could tell me how high 300 is? Is it still “lower division”? Or do you mean that the classes they offer for LSA Music Minors might be different “versions” of the ones that Music Majors take?</p>

<p>I’m glad to hear those other Michigan state colleges are “decent” for music, even if they’re almost the same price as UM ^^. (Would you say Oakland University is good as well? If I go there I don’t need to move away from home). I was considering them since I most definitely can’t get into UM’s level of music, but some general responses around this forum made it sound like I would have a really tough time competing against other students who come from top music programs for jobs.</p>

<p>Also, yep I’m aware about the BA at Umich. I meant I was looking at BAs from other schools but I didn’t mention and I mentioned UM so I guess logically it sounded like that ^_^; Anyhow thanks for the concern once again :)</p>

<p>You have given me a lot of good help! Thanks again!</p>

<p>Yoshi, what I meant is that many of the classes at som are closed to non-majors. In terms of sequential, I meant that you can’t take upper level musicology or theory for example unless you’ve had first the 100 series then the 200 series, etc. LSA does have it’s own set of music classes as well, but if you’re talking about teaching or composing as a profession, they are not what you would call professional stream – they are general undergrad electives, and yes, they do seem to differ from the som, which is fine if your goal is liberal arts style education. I’m not familiar with Oakland but that doesn’t mean anything.
Also, I’d like to make clear that people from all types of disciplines do/can work in aspects of the music industry without formal education and with a lot of serendipity. But naturally if you are serious about pursuing the avenues you mentioned, you may want to get advice from your music teacher about ways to look for programs that would be a fit for your goals and developing talents. On the other hand, if you’re in an exploration phase, umich would be an excellent place to be, because you will receive a very rigorous education with ample exposure to highly talented peers and myriad musical opportunities for non majors. But I wanted to be clear that this is a completely different approach than attending the som – the undergrad population of umich is about 26,000 I think. By comparison, the som has maybe 800 students undergrad. It’s very focused/specialized, which is why many of the som courses just aren’t open to the general lsa population. The courses are designed to be built on an accumulative basis.
So the question is whether you want and are able to pursue music education or composition as a profession right now, or whether you’re content for music to be a rich part of a liberal arts program, which is what I would call an lsa pursuit. If for the moment you are content with the latter you’ll be in good hands at umich lsa – arguably the best education for the money you can receive in state. But if you have the talent and background to pursue music Ed elsewhere (did you even apply to audition at umich?) you may wish to consider sone of those other programs or intensify your music study during a gap year to take a shot at Umich’s som and other programs.
Hope that helps a little. What des your teacher say about all of this?</p>

<p>Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining.</p>

<p>Well, as I’m not sure how intensive my education in music will be at UM (I am applying to other colleges that offer BAs in music, with only about 50% humanities, or rather, a degree that doesn’t require an audition, and also the smaller state schools as a BM major), but if I do go to UM, I will definitely want a degree (not in liberal arts) even if it’s not a BM, as well as a music minor, unless I will be able to take more music electives as solely an LSA student?</p>

<p>And yes, I have signed up for the UMich audition, I most likely won’t make it, but it should be a good experience nonetheless and prepare me for the future in case I want to stick with some sort of a music career.</p>

<p>Well, I’ve told my teacher about all my concerns (after being much more informed from all these helpful posts in some of my older threads/questions) and he said that going to UM would be “probably” the best idea. </p>

<p>Just for information, my piano teacher was a BM student at OU and went on to take a Masters in Piano Pedagogy, but he had to stop mid way because he said he needed money. I’m not sure of all the factors that led to him going to OU, I believe it is partly money, maybe high school grades, but anyways, since he was taking a BM, it sounds like he wanted (at least originally) to pursue a career in music. However, he said that he had to go take training for another profession (i forgot the starting position he had) from some friend of cousin or some sort, since he needed money. He eventually became a paralegal worker (and still is now) but has always taught music part time, and apparently he performs, however occasionally that might be.</p>

<p>He told me that the problem with pursuing a career in music or such, obviously, is that it will be harder to make money, let alone get rich. He mentioned it might be frustrating at times. I can imagine that happening to me, even if I enjoy music (though band teachers can make quite a lot considering all the days off and the benefits), however, considering his life, since he is still not yet working full-time music, I am not sure if his passion for music was simply too small, or at least he prioritized a higher paying job over his passion. He didn’t get a degree or anything in law or business, he just got trained and now is a paralegal. Perhaps the reason why he suggests that I go to UM instead of more “extreme” options such as going to a lesser state school just to get into a music program or taking a gap year is due to his own personal experience (which did not seem to be ideal for him).</p>

<p>He stressed that life is about balance. On one hand you need to be satisfied financially, and another… well you have to do what you love. Seemingly his balance is to do a 40 hour paralegal job, and teach private piano 8 ish hours on the side. He did, a few years back (he is now 45 ish), finish his Masters in Piano Pedagogy, which, I hope, means that he is still very passionate about music.</p>

<p>I expressed that part of what I want is to keep my options open. Even if an option is not ideal, or is inefficient, or hard, it will, at least, always be there. So I ran down the pros and cons of going to Michigan. If I go to Michigan, I can at least take piano lessons from a top music school, so I can continue to improve at a good rate, without majoring in music. Even though the lessons are only 30 min and not 1 hour, I can find help or lessons or motivation from all the great musicians there. He said he agreed that, compared to taking 1 hour lessons at a “lesser” school such as MSU, the reasons I just listed would at worst not set me too far behind. He also expressed (as many do here) it’s up to the student and, with a good teacher, he or she can go far. It’s not the classes, but more the private instruction. Hence, though I may not be able to take higher level music classes, I can improve my playing ability, which can help me to get into a BM program if I can’t find something else I like (at UM or transferring to MSU or other school). If I do find something I want to do, but also want to pursue music, I could, if needed, take a Masters in music at UM sometime. I don’t need to take it immediately, right? I could wait 1 or 2 years to catch up in skill if needed.</p>

<p>If I did get into MSU or another smaller state school, my options would be a little more limited because the only way the school benefits me vs going to UM is because I can be in a music program. Also, it would probably be harder to transfer to a higher school from a lower school than from a higher school to a lower school.</p>

<p>Basically, after explaining the possible choices, he agreed and said that going to UM for now is <em>probably</em> the best choice, also mentioning that many people don’t figure out what they want to do until they get into college and also that my musical skill is most important, not what degree I get.</p>

<p>Actually I’ve been wondering, and I’m not sure if UM would allow this, but it seems you can take a 2nd bachelors (not dual) after your first 4-5 years later on if you want (like going back to school). If I already took the UM english/math/etc. requirements, and already took enough electives to graduate once, would I only need to satisfy the core requirements (with the exceptions of the music credits I took in the previous degree) if I, for example, want to go back part-time and do a BM? If I go for a more boring, less ideal job, but get paid lets say, $50k when I graduate, versus $40k or so as a composer, I could easily do part-time for 3 or 3.5 (if my old music credits help out) and, with the extra money, pay off tuition. If I’m not missing anything, this way I can still end up with a music degree (again, if needed), with the only real downside being that I’ve started a few years later.</p>

<p>Maybe I should call for that and ask UM for specifics and what they think, I’ve heard that if you talk to a college counselor it’s always possible they can make exceptions. But I wonder how relevant my piano teacher’s experiences are, since colleges have changed over time and because I have read that back then, basically anyone could study music if they wanted.</p>

<p>sorry for the book :(</p>

<p>OH WOW</p>

<p>kmcmom13, I thought there was no BA given at UM for Music (liberal arts music degree that is), judging from the SoM page. But you mentioning the LSA got me the idea to check there, and there it is! Music concentration with a liberal arts degree. I guess I didn’t need to send out those applications to Cornell University and U Chicago xD This makes things a LOT easier, since now all my career/degree options are still open by going to UM, instead of having to pick between colleges!</p>

<p>Oh my, this means I can dual-major a AB (bach arts in music) as well as business, just like my original original ORIGINAL plan, before I found out about BMs, music schools, and all that xD I’m quite happy right now, i can’t think of what to do to celebrate haha.</p>

<p>“All courses in Music History/Musicology, Composition, and Music Theory are electable for LS&A credit; some but not all Theatre and Drama courses are available for LSA credit.”</p>

<p>At first I thought they meant you can take all the classes in those subjects just like the SoM students, but it doesn’t seem so. However, it does go up to the 500 level, meaning you can’t take the most advanced classes but you can still take at last the majority of them. In that case, the AB program at UM seems to be pretty good, in regards to the extent in which you can concentrate on music at least (which is about half), since there are other colleges where only 25% or so of your classes can be music.</p>

<p>So like you said, I can’t take all the classes that SoM students do, but for a liberal arts degree, it seems to me (and I hope I’m not misjudging) that it is pretty decent. Probably much better than getting a music minor right? xD I will most likely dual-degree and aim for 5 years, and possibly, I might even get into a BM program.</p>