<p>This thread makes me sad. Sorry to hear of all the bad professors. My d is at a private U and had one terrible Calc prof. Poor english, huge curves, worthless lectures. It was very upsetting to her; she just wanted to learn the math! After reading this thread, now I feel glad that she had 2 okay profs and 2 fab profs in the other classes. So much for our $50,000+! Unfortunately, it feels like the students have no recourse other than hoping for a good TA or a study partner/tutor.</p>
<p>I think research universities can roughly be divided by 2 cultures…</p>
<p>Ones where teaching is highly valued and it is embedded in the culture.
One where the attitude towards teaching is that of indifference. Basically, you win some and you lose some.</p>
<p>As an example, my university has a Faculty Development department with workshops throughout the year. No one uses it. Our local culture does not value it.</p>
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<p>I think that you can complain to the dean for a specific remedy but
there is always the possibility of retaliation down the road,
particularly if your son has to take a course from this professor in
the future. I didn’t have a problem with our daughter talking to the
Dean because she wouldn’t need any future courses with this professor.</p>
<p>It’s always a judgement call but if someone knows that you complained
about him or her, then there may be the temptation to treat the
student a little differently in the future.</p>
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<p>I’m sorry that your kids have to deal with this - our kids have had
courses where they’ve had to deal with this but our daughter has only
had two. Our son has had more generally bad professors but they don’t
sound as bad or numerous as what your son has had to endure.</p>
<p>@mathmom - DS is the only student in Part 2 Professor’s course who took Part 1 with another professor. He would be alone in complaining. He did talk to Part 2 Prof about it, but the prof could not have cared less. I can’t figure out where he can go to learn the material other than trying to learn it on his own. Additionally, the text he used for Part 1 does not cover the material. Does he go to the Dean and complain? Shouldn’t he have a solution to the problem in mind before he does? Is the department responsible for getting the information to DS?</p>
<p>I think students are loathe to complain for fear of being black-listed. Probably not an irrational fear, but I’ll suggest it to DS and we can discuss the possible outcomes/ramifications. </p>
<p>Funny, it seems to be the younger professors who are the better teachers. The profs with the most experience are the most arrogant ones. It’s a shame because you’d think they’d have the teaching thing down by now and have the most to offer a student it terms of years of expertise in an area.</p>
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<p>I’ll bring this up to DS. He overheard some grad students talking in the library over the weekend and approached them with a question about a certain professor. Their answer was that this professor was notorious for creating a final no one could pass and seemed to revel in killing students’ good grades. Maybe DS can get with one of these grad students for a quick tutorial on the lost material.</p>
<p>Could he ask other students in the class if they could loan him their notes from Part 1 and perhaps the textbook if they still have it?</p>
<p>BTW, this can be a big problem with sequence courses. My son took a math course that was the second in a two-course sequence. The first professor taught the correct material. The second professor taught it in a way that was relevant to his research but he had material that didn’t belong in that course. I think that all of the students in the class withdrew - the guy didn’t do a good job with the materials that he appeared to be creating on the fly. There were only a handful of students left when our son withdrew and he took the course a few years later that covered the proper material.</p>
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<p>We thought of that, but DS doesn’t know anyone in Part 2 course. He was moving in a specific herd and broke away from the herd last semester for a valid reason. Little did we know sequential courses should be taken by the same professor because there is no set criteria for each course. DS is going to try to get the text Part 2 prof used last term, but the course is moving so fast he is already behind. He needs to catch up NOW.</p>
<p>And what does he do about Where-Am-I Professor? Just one more hole in his swiss cheese education.</p>
<p>They should write comments on RMP anyway, if only to let off some steam.</p>
<p>Presumably, somebody with clout at this university cares about teaching. It’s a problem of finding out who it is. A suggestion is to write anonymous letter(s) to the chair, dean, provost, etc., describing factually (not emotionally) the issues with these courses/teachers. The letters should include an anonymous email address, so that if there is someone that cares, that person can contact them. Despite precautions, they should be aware that they might be identified as some point, so it is important to provide facts that can be supported by several students.</p>
<p>If there is a whole class in an uproar, a letter from the whole class might get the point across.</p>
<p>I’ve just skimmed the thread in the interest of time, so apologies if this has been done.</p>
<p>Start with the professor. Your children should make an appointment to discuss the perceived unfairness of the test/homework. They should come armed with all of the facts and as much documentation as possible. They should present their case calmly and with an air of reason and they should be specific about what they want. If they want an A/B/C they should state that they feel they’ve done the work as specified in the course syllabus to earn an A/B/C and lay that work before the professor. If the student is persistent and confident in their approach and makes a good case that the professor has done something unfair, it will occur to the professor that this student will go higher with his/her complaint if nothing is done to remedy the situation. In the one instance I asked a professor to reconsider a grade (eons ago) he was happy to look over my test again, discuss the topic (synthesis of an organic molecule), and assign the one extra point I needed for an A. Perhaps some will view this as “grade grubbing”, but if the student goes in with facts and a good argument the worst that can happen is the professor will say “no”.</p>
<p>Does the school have a “shopping period” at the beginning of each semester? My D’s school has a two week period when students can attend classes/drop/add with relative abandon. The main advantage, according to her, is to listen to what the professor has to say, identify teaching style, etc. It’s been an excellent way for her to avoid classes or professors she doesn’t like.</p>
<p>“I second the notion that it’s the Univ of Michigan.”</p>
<p>I wouldn’t want ANYONE to get the wrong impression. What if the notion is wrong?</p>
<p>As I’ve noted previously, my d., is a graduate student at the Ivy best known for supposedly stressing undergraduate education, started teaching new material, graded all exams and papers, and supervised other TAs at an age where she was barely older than some of her students. The prof knew none of the students - he does give “fun” lectures and hence is “popular” - but wouldn’t know any of the students from a hole-in-the-wall, and couldn’t care less. Now, I expect my d. is pretty good, and I guess she should feel flattered. But I can’t imagine that’s what parents think they’re paying $220k for. As much as I respect my d’s intelligence and knowledge, I’d be appalled.</p>
<p>@momsquad - Been there, done that - to no avail. Exam 3 Prof admitted to the entire class he wrote a bad exam, but did nothing realistic to remedy it. How do you fix this type of problem?</p>
<p>It seems like DS and DD (and other students) have to fight for points on every single quiz, exam, etc. It’s ridiculous. DS has also brought corrections to the TA’s who misgrade his projects. Some TA’s make the corrections, some do not. It seems to be the culture of the college be sloppy in the undergraduate teaching and grading. Apparently, it’s been like this for at least 50 years.</p>
<p>@Gourmetmom - Both DS and DD are in majors with very specific coursework. That’s why so many students get stuck with a bad professor - they have to take the course to move on to the next course. The courses all fit together in a tightly scripted sequence. I suspect this is part of the reason the bad professors keep getting assigned to teach - no one realizes how bad they are because students can’t avoid them. The courses fill up each semester. I also believe the university doesn’t care. They have a great reputation (now that I’m seeing it first-hand, I’m not sure I know why) that is perpetuated year after year.</p>
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<p>Perhaps I am being too stereotypical, but can you name some research universities where teaching is highly valued? The problem for undergrads at research universities is that these schools care about research. For professors at these schools, research is what gets them tenure, promotion, and raises. There are only so many hours in the day, so the professor who wants to keep her job has to prioritize research over teachng.</p>
<p>I had these problems 30 years ago at school…so sorry!
I always found it was some “renowned” research professor…the one who is “brilliant”, has a thousand research patents…and can’t teach out of a paper bag. </p>
<p>One of these freaks failed a senior friend of mine…by one point on one exam. Literally. An essay exam where he could have easily added a point ANYWHERE! It went before the board but he wouldn’t budge (they should have over ruled him). It cost her not only time and money retaking the course; it cost her a year in salary (since professional exams were only offered at certain times to obtain a llcense). And she had already had a job lined up. If this was today I would have sent him a bill and pursued the case…</p>
<p>I had another professor situation that the students took into their own hands…they delivered a bucket of tar and feathers on the last day of class…presented it personally on the main stage. He got the message. The college got the message too–he wasn’t there next semester.</p>
<p>Sadly, these same ineffective/unqualified professors are the ones who at some point their careers become department chairs and upper level administrators. Most have no formal training in education or business administration, yet they are responsible for running a smooth ship with increasingly shrinking budgets. </p>
<p>Our DD will (hopefully!) have to make a decision between a UC school and a LAC, and we are tallying the pros and cons. The teaching situation at UC is a major concern, but others tell me that terrible profs exist at small LACs too. </p>
<p>Seems we are paying more for less these days.</p>
<p>Paying more for less…that’s a good question.
Do we want the world-renowned professor to teach? Of course! If he can actually convey a rational thought. It’s wonderful to have “Mr. Expertise” up in front.
If my kid needs to learn basic chemistry I’ll take the TA who can teach it over “Prof. Fabulous but doesn’t care” in a second.
Is there a “common sense” test in the teaching curriculum?</p>
<p>Amesie- I’ll bite.</p>
<p>Research U’s where teaching is highly valued:
MIT
Brown
Yale
U T
JHU
Cornell</p>
<p>This just based on a 3 minute poll of the people in my office who have kids in college or recent grads. That doesn’t mean that you won’t find a clunker in this group-- just that the overwhelming culture is to support undergrad learning, and that if you were to go to a Dean or Director of Undergraduate Studies (whatever the U calls that person) you would get rapid attention.</p>
<p>I’m sure there are hundreds more- so weigh in.</p>
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Part of the problem is that there is no “teaching curriculum” at the college/university level in many places. A student becomes a grad student, works as a Teaching Assistant often with minimal supervision, gets a PhD in a particular field of study, and is pronounced fit to teach in that field. As a faculty member he goes on to teach drawing primarily from how he himself was taught and any personal ideas he may have regarding how it should be done. Often there isn’t much in the way of help or supervision. </p>
<p>In reading the op, my first thought was perhaps the D and S were complaining too much, but then I began to think about my own undergrad and grad experiences at the flagship state research U. In the engineering department, my experience was generally positive. I would rate them an A. In the math department it was terrible. Rate them a D. In the physics department it was mixed, but generally positive. Rate them a B. </p>
<p>I don’t know what the answer to this is, but it does seem that there can be a large variation even within the same U. </p>
<p>When we were touring schools with S, in the course of one day we visited 2 schools for tours and at one were told “teaching is our primary focus”, and at the other were told “research is our primary focus”. As an undergrad, give me the teaching-focused school any day of the week.</p>
<p>I’ve been to three schools as an undergraduate: A decently ranked, Masters granting private school, a well-ranked public research institution, and mid-size state school known only for its teacher education. </p>
<p>Far and away, I have had the best teachers of my college career at my current school, which by far has the lowest reputation of the three. While I do have friends who have had some serious clunkers, especially in core math and science classes, for the most part my friends and I have encountered faculty who are excellent, devoted teachers. My second best professors were at the private school, and my worst professors were at the well-ranked research school. </p>
<p>Though, it is worth mentioning that the different programs I was in did affect how much choice I had in the matter. At my first school, I was taking largely gen ed courses, and had a decent amount of choice in what I was taking. At the second, I was studying engineering and was forced to take two semesters of this AWFUL general engineering core class with the biggest pompous windbag I have ever had the misfortune of having to listen to. Now, studying psychology, aside from a core sequence of courses for which I had a more limited selection of professors, most of the major is comprised of a choice of coursework, so for anyone truly awful in the department, it all came down to choosing not to take his or her course.</p>