<p>Which type of degree is preferred for economics and math in order to maximize chances of getting into the top graduate schools? I am trying to eliminate some schools off my list fast, and I may be able to eliminate the liberal arts colleges if I get the answer to this question.</p>
<p>There is no difference; it’s just a name, like DDS vs. DMD. In addition, considering grad school, here’s why you shouldn’t eliminate LACs (i.e., how well LACs compare to big U’s): </p>
<p>Academic field: Economics</p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees:
ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database</p>
<p>Number of Undergraduates:
ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database</p>
<p>Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads, multiplied by 1000</p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period </p>
<p>1 Swarthmore College 16
2 Grinnell College 7
3 Williams College 7
4 Carleton College 7
5 Harvard University 6
6 Agnes Scott College 6
7 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 5
8 University of Chicago 5
9 Yale University 5
10 California Institute of Technology 5
11 Princeton University 5
12 Macalester College 5
13 Stanford University 4
14 Pomona College 4
15 Oberlin College 4
16 Wellesley College 4
17 Trinity University 4
18 Bowdoin College 3
19 Earlham College 3
20 Berea College 3
21 Amherst College 3
22 Wabash College 3
23 Bard College 3
24 Rocky Mountain College 3
25 Coe College 3
26 Wesleyan University 3
27 College of William and Mary 3
28 Colby College 3
29 Columbia University in the City of New York 3
30 Hillsdale College 3
31 Franklin and Marshall College 3</p>
<p>PhDs per graduate </p>
<p>Academic field: All Engineering, Hard Science, and Math </p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database<br>
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database<br>
Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads </p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period. </p>
<p>1 California Institute of Technology 34%
2 Harvey Mudd College 24%
3 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 16%
4 Reed College 10%
5 Rice University 9%
6 Swarthmore College 8%
7 Princeton University 8%
8 Carleton College 7%
9 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 7%
10 University of Chicago 7%
11 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 7%
12 Case Western Reserve University 7%
13 Harvard University 6%
14 Carnegie Mellon University 6%
15 Johns Hopkins University 6%
16 Haverford College 6%
17 Grinnell College 6%
18 Cornell University, All Campuses 6%
19 Kalamazoo College 5%
20 Stanford University 5%
21 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 5%
22 Yale University 5%
23 Cooper Union 5%
24 Oberlin College 5%
25 Lawrence University 5%
26 Bryn Mawr College 5%
27 Williams College 5%
28 Pomona College 5%
29 Colorado School of Mines 4%
30 Bowdoin College 4%
31 Earlham College 4%
32 Brown University 4%
33 University of Rochester 4%
34 University of California-Berkeley 4%
35 Wabash College 4%
36 Duke University 4%
37 Worcester Polytechnic Institute 4%
38 Amherst College 4%
39 Stevens Institute of Technology 4%
40 St Olaf College 4%
41 Hendrix College 4%
42 Beloit College 4%
43 University of Missouri, Rolla 4%
44 University of California-San Francisco 4%
45 Occidental College 4%
46 Alfred University, Main Campus 4%
47 Allegheny College 4%
48 Whitman College 4%
49 College of Wooster 4%
50 SUNY College of Environmental Sci & Forestry 4%</p>
<p>Don’t burn your LAC bridges just yet: grad schools take into account what degrees your undergrad institution offers and adjusts their expectations accordingly. Example: people who want to get into the biology grad program at my university usually don’t have good chances without a BS, but one of my favorite TAs came from an LAC that only offered a BA. She was bright and had tons of work experience and got in no problem. If, however, she had come from a big university that offered a BS and hadn’t taken advantage of the coursework, it probably would have looked like laziness and the BA wouldn’t have cut it. Don’t nix any schools just because of the label; that label means nothing out of context.</p>
<p>So I am deciding between Hamilton College (LAC, tied with Colgate in US News rankings), Bucknell University (LAC), George Washington University, and Northeastern University Honors College. I am more leaning between Hamilton and GWU. I know both schools have the complete opposite environments, one is really urban and the other very rural. I have visited all four schools. They all have environments that I like, I certainly don’t love or hate any of them. I’m planning on spending most of the hours of my days in the college’s library. The only thing I am trying to learn is which school will give me the greatest edge when going for grad school. Which school will give me the best education, research experience, recommendations, and potential connections (the four most critical factors for getting into the top grad schools)?</p>
<p>They are all good programs. You are splitting hairs. Go with your gut and choose the school you like best. Unfortunately, a lot can happen outside your control that will affect your long term goals.</p>
<p>I hate it when I’m told to go with my gut…that’s impossible for me to do. I’m creating pros/cons lists for all the schools, and I have been able to distinguish Hamilton and GWU from the other two schools, but now it is getting really tough to differentiate between these final two schools. </p>
<p>Don’t graduate schools like to see a B.S. a bit more, even if only a slight bit more, than a B.A., because I have heard that B.A.'s are a lot easier, especially in economics, because they lack the mathematical heaviness when compared to programs of B.S.?</p>
<p>I have a friend who went to Yale and got a BA in economics. She’s now a grad student at Princeton. I have another friend who got a BA in math from Harvard and he’s now a grad student at MIT after working for a hedge fund firm for a couple of years. I think BAs do just fine.</p>
<p>^Yeah, but they went to Yale and Harvard undergrad, these two schools are the greatest schools in the nation and the world. It might be a different story with GWU or Hamilton, no? I’m going to an inferior undergrad school, but I’ll still be competing with those from yale, harvard, etc, for the hot grad school spots. That’s why I am trying to plan in a manner that will allow me to maximize my ability for top grad school acceptance, those kids from Havard and Yale have a little leeway.</p>
<p>This will go against the basis of these forums, but the only “edge” in applying to grad school is yourself. All of your potential schools will have the faculty and resources to give you a good education and won’t hurt you in grad admissions. College is mostly about giving yourself an education, really; and the recommendations/experience bit is ALL you. I would go to the school websites, peruse the faculty’s research interests, and get in contact with some to ask if they’re taking on undergrads. Choose whoever will help you most in your field, not whoever’s signature looks better.</p>
<p>There is no magic school that will vault you over other applicants. The department won’t be sitting with two applications in hand and say “This student has an excellent statement of purpose and recommendations, and his research interests align with ours exactly, but uh-oh, he went to <em>Hamilton</em>. Now, this other fellow went to Haahvahd, and since the profs at Ivy Leagues get paid more than those LAC washouts, he must have learned more. Hamilton kid’s out.”</p>
<p>Also: environment is overrated. It’s not like ‘urbanness’ or ‘ruralness’ infuses into students brains and makes them think differently. It only matters if you tend to get bored and need entertainment off campus, or if you’re the type that must have trees to breathe properly.</p>
<p>^Yeah I agree with you on the environment.</p>
<p>But I disagree with you on the issue of it being “all you.” Because the opportunities available at a school like Harvard would be drastically different than the opportunities offered at a school like Northeastern. They are in completely different tiers, and that is not (just) because the professors at one school are paid more (though Harvard professors are not even necessarily paid more, I read a physics professor moved from harvard to BU, and he was getting paid more at BU, it is some famous guy, think “Glashow,” not sure).</p>
<p>I feel that since I will be competing against students from Harvard, Princeton, etc, when applying for grad school, they will have some leeway, whereas I would have to be nearly perfect in order to get the same grad school spots. We all know grad school admissions are the most arbitrary thing in the world (at least that is what I have been reading in these threads). Everyone has perfect grades, research experience, etc, so little tiny factors come to play big roles.</p>
<p>Going to a liberal arts college and getting a BA is not going to hurt you when you apply to graduate school. Really, it’s far more likely to help if you go to a LAC.</p>
<p>Students at LACs tend to get more one-on-one time with faculty. You can definitely develop good, personal relationships with faculty if you want, which is much more difficult to do at a university. This means that you will probably have an easier time with coursework/research, and more importantly, you will have really good recommendations. Recommendations are KEY for any graduate program.</p>
<p>So go where makes you happy. A BS is not going to help you. Even if you are having trouble going with your gut, if you are comparing academically comparable schools, then you should base your decision mostly on quality-of-life. </p>
<p>What schools have activities/clubs that appeal to you? Getting involved with a student-run business, for example, could do wonders for a graduate school application depending on the field.</p>
<p>So here is my list:</p>
<p>GWU
–Very high number of internship opportunities, especially for economics, most in the nation, due primarily to location.
–Professors are very involved in their fields, and do a lot of consulting in the private and government sectors, due primarily to location. This may help create connections.
–High number of professors from the top-top graduate schools (MIT, UC Berkeley, etc.)
–Offers both B.S. and B.A.
–Offers graduate level courses for top undergrad students.
–Lots of jazz clubs in case I get bored (though I will probably be too consumed with academics, which is my plan).
–The housing is constantly ranked the best in the nation, and the dining is also up there.
–Very good, mild weather.
–Very diverse student body.</p>
<p>Hamilton College
–Smaller school, so I will get smaller classes.
–I will have more chances to see professors outside of class, which may mean better letters of recommendations and also more research opportunities.
–Professors are not as popular (except for one economics professor and one mathematics professor), but they are better teachers.
–Hamilton has less required courses, and gives the students more freedom to design their own schedules (though the school does have stupid phys ed requirments).
–The general student body is a bit more focused on their studies and are more competitive academically, which is a good thing.
–The school has a strong alumni support network, which may help build some connections.
–The housing and dining, while not as good as GWU’s, is still not too shabby at all, certainly shouldn’t play a major factor.
–Weather is not so good (snows a lot), but I can handle it.
–Rural town, but it’s pretty cute and beautiful, so I won’t mind it. I’ll be in the library for most of the time anyway.</p>
<p>So, tell me what you all think…</p>
<p>I would definitely choose GWU, for the opportunities you would have in DC. You could build a pretty great resume during your summer breaks, and there are plenty of think tanks and research organizations that could provide you with research exposure as long as you can get yourself linked in somewhere – it sounds like your professors might be able to help with that. Good luck with the decision!</p>
<p>^Yeah, it is a pretty hard decision, but I thank you for your input. On the one hand, Hamilton is ranked so much better, is so much more prestigious and selective, has such a better academics program, but then GWU has so many more research and internship opportunities along with more comfort. Grrrr, I wish I got into Cornell (I got waitlisted, which basically means rejected), it would’ve made life so much easier!</p>
<p>colberTreporT, if anything, grad school admissions are much less arbitrary than undergrad admissions. Undergrads are picked to fill demographics; the process is hardly personal (and shouldn’t be, because people change a lot between the ages of 18 and 22). ‘Tiny’ factors like “how well does this person’s ideas fit with our research” and “could I stand to see this person every day for the next five years” suddenly mean more than point differences in GPA during grad admissions. It isn’t merit anymore, because everyone who applies has that; it’s fit.</p>
<p>What I mean by “all you” is that that’s what the grad committees look at: <em>you</em>. Not you as a carbon-copy of the profs at the school you’re from, but you, and how you could further their goals. Of course, if you couldn’t live with yourself if you didn’t get into an Ivy League for grad school because you couldn’t fathom being a professor anywhere else (and they are a little snobbish when it comes to hiring researchers, I’ll admit: there isn’t a single Harvard prof. in economics that doesn’t have a Harvard/Yale/MIT PhD), a quick glance through the graduate student profiles at Harvard Engineering turns up people from U Mich and San Jose in addition to the obligatory Stanford/Columbia line-up. You just have to work really hard to accomplish what would be relatively easier at a resource-rich school.</p>
<p>As to the “paid more” bit: I was being facetious. 'Twas a joke. It seems like you need a few more of those in your life to keep you sane during this hunting for the label of prestige.</p>
<p>“As to the “paid more” bit: I was being facetious. 'Twas a joke. It seems like you need a few more of those in your life to keep you sane during this hunting for the label of prestige.”–tkm256</p>
<p>^I must admit, you are dead right.</p>