Barnard stereotypes, promulgated by Columbians

<p>Right upfront I’d like to say that I’m trying to figure out NOT ONLY the degree of truth of these stereotypes, but also how much they are tossed around on the two campuses. If anyone claims 0% truth I would like to know what you think caused people to start stereotyping Barnard students.</p>

<p>I read in Megan McCafferty’s book “Charmed Thirds” (the author is a “Columbia graduate” according to the book jacket, I’m not sure whether undergrad or what):</p>

<p>“Since Columbia University went coed in 1983 there has been a glacial relationship between the women of Columbia College and the women of Barnard College, the women-only school located right across Broadway. It has everything to do with the scarcity of single Columbia men. Between the two campuses, guys are outnumbered roughly two to one, which makes for very heavy competition on the hookup front. Columbia women claim that the Barnard women are (1) preoccupied with appearances, (2) dumb, and (3) slutty. (That is, the ones who aren’t stereotyped as man-hating lesbians, making them a versatile group, indeed.) Columbia women generally concede that this combination makes Barnard women irresistible to Columbia men. The Barnard women claim that they are indeed (1) cuter and (2) more stylish than the Columbia women, but are (3) equally smart, all vehemently unslutty explanations for their attractiveness to Columbia men.” (p139)</p>

<p>Now, I really respect this author–I LOVE the Jessica Darling series–and am influenced by her take on the social topography of the two schools esp. because I’m applying to both (as I’ve heard many ppl do.)</p>

<p>thoughts?</p>

<p>ahhh also I didn't mean to say "0% truth" because obv. there's always going to be a variety of students at a college...I just meant a higher than average degree of truth I guess...</p>

<p>You can read lots and lots about this if you do simple searches of both this forum and the Columbia one (and I saw that you also posted this there).</p>

<p>I almost never agree with the tone of the poster who responded to your post on the Columbia forum and I often disagree with the substance of his posts. However, in this case (and surprisingly as he as been absolutely horrible in the past on this subject), I pretty much agree with his response to you. There will be brilliant as well as "ditsy" women on both campuses. I do disagree with his indication that there would be truly un-intelligent women (don't recall his exact words, sorry) at Barnard.
I asked my daughter (a junior at Barnard) about this very thing just a couple of days ago. She said she has experienced absolutely no negative "stereotyping" from Columbia students at all. And given the choice, she would much prefer being a Barnard student to a Columbia College student.</p>

<p>Thanks churchmusicmom! I actually did not do a very thorough search on the subject; I just didn't see any thread titles relating to it. I've decided to take Megan McCafferty's views with about as many grains of salt as the number of years since she's graduated, because I really like both schools.</p>

<p>Ann Onymous,
Last year, I applied ED to Columbia and was rejected. Last minute, I added Barnard to my list of schools, and not a day has passed when I haven't been thankful for that rejection letter. I cannot imagine a better fit for me. While those stereotypes still exist in some form, they don't really affect me on a day-to-day basis. You have to remember that while Barnard and Columbia have many similarities, they are very different institutions. You need to decide which environment is better for you. Big university? or small liberal arts college? For me, the small liberal arts college with all of the resources of the large university was the best decision Columbia ever made for me.</p>

<p>AnnOnymous, Bad1017 is correct when she says that Columbia College and Barnard are two very different institutions. My d also thought she wanted Columbia at first and rapidly changed her mind when she found out more about Barnard. </p>

<p>There are many, many differences between the two. Outstanding characteristics of Barnard which are quite distinctive from CC include the attentiveness of the faculty, more intimate "atmosphere" and emphasis upon challenging and supporting women as scholars and successful individuals; much better advising; totally different basic requirements (the rigid core of CC vs the "nine ways of knowing" at Barnard). All of this along with the advantages of being a part of Columbia University (course availability, involvement in extracurriculars, library system, etc).</p>

<p>I wish you the best in your college decision. If you are fortunate enough to have to decide between Columbia College and Barnard, please consider the very distinctive nature of the two situations.</p>

<p>My d has just finished her first semester at Barnard and despite a rocky October (pretty serious infection, misdiagnosed by the Barnard health center) really thrived. As well-known as Barnard is, I think its magic as a small, elite, women's liberal arts college so closely aligned with a major research university is hard to grasp until you actually go there. But it really is a fabulous combination. My daughter loves her dorm-mates and her Barnard classes, but she also took an intro Russian class on the other side of Broadway, is involved in extra-curriculars on both sides, and has plenty of Columbia friends (both men and women). She very much enjoys the social scene at Columbia, but she and her friends call the shots, not the boys. Columbia women have been fine.</p>

<p>Now that she's been there a while, it's easier to understand how Barnard has turned out its unbelievably impressive list of alumnae, from Zora Neale Hurston and Helen Gahagan Douglas (one of Nixon's first political victims) to Anna Quindlen and, I found out just the other day, Joan Rivers. It's an impressive place.</p>

<p>Azdad, I am glad your daughter has had an overall positive experience at Barnard during her first year. I am so sorry about the medical issues! I understand how difficult it is to have a kid far away and not feeling well.</p>

<p>Good to hear another perspective on how unique and fantastic Barnard is. I sometimes feel pretty boring because I keep on saying this over and over!!</p>

<p>Best to you and your daughter!</p>

<p>D skypes me from London regularly now that she is abroad. One of the things she wants to talk about is Barnard. </p>

<p>She is working on a very interesting project. She is an American Studies major and her department has been very supportive of her studying American Studies in London. She has plans to do a study of how the Brits see us and differences in the perspectives about America. Heady stuff. My point is that the department encouraged her to go and study America abroad. She is in continual contact, by email, with faculty at Barnard even though their semester hasn't even begun yet!</p>

<p>She and I have tremendous love and respect for Barnard. I know she would not prefer being at Columbia.</p>

<p>Another perspective:
My daughter does not like the fact that Barnard is all women. She did not feel that it was a good thing to have only women in her first year studies course, or to have other classes largely dominated by women -- on the contrary she has told me that she feels that something is lost when the male point of view is left out of the discussion.</p>

<p>However, as far as the school is concerned, for academic & administrative reasons, Barnard wins hands down. For example, my d. has nothing nice whatsoever to say about Columbia's Pres., Bollinger -- and everything nice to say about Barnard's pres, Judith Shapiro -- I know she is expressing her own point of view but also echoing what she picks up from other students. It is only when you get to a college that you realize how important the administration is, and how important student/faculty/administrative relations are. It's hard to put in words because it doesn't have a direct effect on course content, it certainly has absolutely nothing to do with the dating scene (the apparent source of the negative stereotype).... but it has an overwhelming influence on how students view their school and their role within it. I think Barnard students feel that they have a voice and that they are valued by their faculty. </p>

<p>Also, now that my daughter is getting into her major, she has pointed out that almost all Barnard majors require a senior thesis, whereas Columbia majors don't. Since she is a poli sci major I went on line and compared the requirements -- in both colleges the same array of courses would be taken, but at Barnard there is more time spent in small seminars or colloquia... and there is that senior thesis which my d. says is an 80-page paper. Now this is not something that my d. is telling me in praise of Barnard -- on the contrary, it is part of her woe-is-me, griping about how "hard" she has to work at her school -- but from my perspective as the tuition-paying parent, I think tougher is better, and I also feel that the senior thesis requirement is something that reflects an educational philosophy that favors students exploring and creating new knowledge as opposed to merely taking in what is taught to them. So if I were to evaluate the academic programs, I'd think that Barnard's was stronger, especially now that I've seen 9-ways-of-knowing in action -- although it is more flexible, I think it actually forces a deeper and broader general education than Columbia's core. For example, my daughter is very weak in math, and she took a science course (astronomy) that filled Barnard's quantitative reasoning requirements, but she won't be able to use it for that because she also needs to fill the 2-semester lab science requirement -- so I think she will end up having to take more math & science to meet the 9-ways requirements than she would have at Columbia, where the science requirement can be met via general lecture courses without taking lab courses. </p>

<p>So all in all... from the perspective of someone whose daughter is not in love with all things Barnard.... it still seems to be the preferable program. </p>

<p>If you think about it though... you can see another very big reason for stereotyping and hostility: envy. While my d. and her Barnard friends were opting for advanced level and even graduate level courses during their freshman year, the Columbia students were slogging through the core taking classes like Lit-Hum or Frontiers of Science. Meanwhile my daughter's experience her first semester was that except for her first-year writing course, most of the students in her other classes were sophomores or above. One of the most amazing things about Columbia & Barnard is that the policy toward course enrollment is extremely liberal - you can pretty much take anything offered if you have the prerequisite or foundational courses -- but the Columbia students have more required freshman-level courses, which of course limits their options in terms of elective courses. If you combine that with the close advising Barnard students get (my d's adviser is the head of a Barnard department and also the head of a separate graduate level department at Columbia) - it looks like Barnard students have greater opportunities in terms of being able to take advantage of the amazing course offerings of both schools and faculty contacts.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if you really are a Megan McCafferty fan and your true goal is to find a college where your social life and romantic prospects are enhanced..... go to NYU. My d. says the boys there are a lot cuter, and quite frankly, Morningside Heights can't compete with the East Village night life.</p>

<p>If one of your kids gets into a top school and one into a second tier school, how far do you go to spare the less fortunate ones' feelings? Argue, for example, that there is no difference between the schools even though all the facts seem to refute that? Or even go so far as to claim the lesser school is better? I guess we will go to great lengths to spare our kids feelings. Is that ok or are we setting them up for a rude awakening?</p>

<p>What is your point, Windy?</p>

<p>I gather you are being sarcastic and indicating that you think it has been said on these boards that "we" think Barnard/Columbia College are the same. That is not at all what has been said.</p>

<p>Do I think being a Barnard student is the better experience for my daughter than being a Columbia College student would have been? Yes. Absolutely. Do I think admission to Columbia College is more competitive than Barnard? Of course it is. </p>

<p>Do I consider my daughter to be "less fortunate" because she is a Barnard student? Far from it!</p>

<p>Do you have any real questions about Barnard that you would like addressed? I am sure there are several here who would be glad to assist you.</p>

<p>Best to you.</p>

<p>windy, are you suggesting that Barnard is a "second tier school"?</p>

<p>According to the Boalt scale (a scale created for the UC Berkeley Law School to measure the difficulty of getting an A at various institutions for the purpose of law school admission, Barnard and Columbia have the same exact difficulty on their scale. Barnard is listed, then Columbia (most difficult, Swarthmore, above both.) I presume this was strictly alphabetical order. So, for UC Berkeley (Boalt Law School in the top five) Barnard and Columbia are academically equivalent.</p>

<p>Windy, why are you obsessed with Barnard? This boards are for students asking questions, but you bait parents. I still don't understand why.</p>

<p>mythmom, can you link to that page please? I'm interested in checking out the scale.</p>

<p>Scroll down to the bottom of this page:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/393410-colleges-grade-deflation.html?highlight=boalt+scale%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/393410-colleges-grade-deflation.html?highlight=boalt+scale&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I don't have a clue as to what Windy is talking about, but my d. turned down the Univ. of Chicago to attend Barnard; US News ranks Chicago as equivalent to Columbia. So much for "rankings". (There never was any question in her mind or mine that Barnard was preferred over Chicago, though she did tell me she would have opted for Chicago over Fordham, so it wasn't all about Manhattan.)</p>

<p>In terms of the generalizations the OP cited, I will say I have heard them before. I think there is a generalization on both campuses (Columbia and Barnard) that Barnard women "get" more guys and party more...whether or not this is true, who's to say. When single Columbia girls talk about this, some may be bitter and make jokes about Barnard girls being "sluttier" or caring too much about their appearance. While I have heard of this happening, I havent heard of it happeneing too often. One Columbia girl I know brags that people have assumed she goes to Barnard (she thinks Barnard girls are stereotyped as more attractive and stylish, as the author said Barnard girls say they are). </p>

<p>Everyone knows Barnard is easier to get into in terms of the admission rate. But people dont usually assume Barnard girls are less smart because of this. The difference is small - Columbia students have a higher SAT average of about 50 points, but Barnard students actually have a higher high school GPA (according to a magazine run by Columbia, the Blue & White, that did an issue on Barnard recently and joked that Columbia students really wish they went to Barnard). Besides, anyone who goes to either school knows some dumb people and some brilliant people that go to both. </p>

<p>Also, dont think all Columbia women are Barnard-haters. I have a few friends at Columbia who have told me they wish they went to Barnard instead (because we dont have a core, better advising system, etc.). Indeed, one friend , who got into Columbia early, said if she had to do it over again she would definately have applied to Barnard early and she has thought about transferring, though she decided it isnt worth it. Many Columbians respect Barnard, and most take classes there and eat in our cafeteria, which has a better reputation than the Columbia one :)</p>

<p>Well, my daughter says the food sucks at both campuses and is very glad to be off the meal plan this year. ;)</p>

<p>just thought i should bring this thread back to life now that decisions are rolling it!</p>

<p>bump!</p>