<p>Is anyone else unsure about Barnard?</p>
<p>I’m trying to decide b/w Barnard, Tufts, and GW honors.</p>
<p>Overall, Barnard, esp with the Columbia connection, is probably better academically than those two. However, I want to major in IR- Tufts and GW, I think, would be better in that area, since a huge % of their students major in that. Barnard doesn’t even have IR, it’s part of the polisci major.</p>
<p>Does anyone have any advice?</p>
<p>Have you visited all three schools to see what the atmosphere is like? Often, it's better to decide based on how happy you will be in the school environment, as opposed to the majors offered. Also, make a pro-con list (as cliche as it sounds).</p>
<p>I will second the advice about visiting all three campus...again even if you have already been there earlier in your search. Can you go to the "accpeted student" days for each school?</p>
<p>I also agree that basing your decision completely upon a major may not be wise since so many people end up changing their minds during their undergrad years...just make sure the school you choose provides you the opportunity to choose from a strong broad range of subjects. Also, the provision of internship opportunities in areas of interest is critical.</p>
<p>How is the advising at Tufts and GW? You said that a huge % of students major in IR there....does the larger number of students appeal to you? Or are you using that as a barometer of the program's stature? Also, if you plan on pursuing a Master's degree, would an undergrad degree in PoliSci be appropriate and then a master's in IR (if you still want to do that) at a different school be the way to go? Just some things to consider...</p>
<p>Also, what kind of financial aid packages have been offered at each school? This may or may not be of ciritical importance to you and your family, but might factor in there somewhere...</p>
<p>Best to you in making your decision! Let us know how it goes...</p>
<p>"Abundance of riches"; have to visit. </p>
<p>Also suggest consider what happens if you change your mind re: major choice.
Which is not too unheard of among college students, to say the very least.</p>
<p>Not that any of these places are bad, in any event.</p>
<p>My daughter didn't like GW when she visited, for some reason, don't know why though. NY probably has tons of internship opportunities, but specifically politics-related internship opportunities have to be most abundant in DC. </p>
<p>Tufts didn't have the big dance program so she didn't look, but we know a kid who goes there & really likes it.</p>
<p>FWIW, the people I know who pursued specific areas like International Relations did it in grad programs, eg MPA, after a liberal arts undergrad.
Seems sort of like the choice between taking a Bachelor's in Business Administration or getting a liberal arts degree and then later, if you want it, getting an MBA.</p>
<p>The possibly broader LAC curriculum might offer- or even force- exposure to a wider variety of subject areas. You may relish the notion of being thus-broadened. And maybe one of these other areas, that you don't even know about now, could become your life's passion, at which point screw IR.</p>
<p>Or you might really know what you want now, don't want to be forced to take stuff you know you hate.
"Broaden" = waste of time for you.</p>
<p>So depends on you, and depends on the curricula of these different schools/ programs, too. Maybe.</p>
<p>I'm assuming here that IR is in actually a separate school at one of these universities, and not just another major as part of their liberal arts college. Otherwise: "Never mind".</p>
<p>Actually, I don't think most people would say that Barnard is better academically than Tufts. Second, go to Barnard because you like BARNARD, not because you like Columbia. I have too many friends who did that and then ended up transferring out.</p>
<p>Second, if you want to study IR, go to Tufts. Or GWU. Though I do believe Tufts' undergraduate program is more renowned (it's among the top 3 in the country along with Georgetown and JHU).</p>
<p>"Second, go to Barnard because you like BARNARD, not because you like Columbia. "</p>
<p>I agree with this. Though not sure whether OP thinks otherwise. I know my daughter is going to Barnard because of Barnard. Columbia is part of the picture as a very welcome supplement/enhancement to what Barnard offers, not instead of it. My daughter prefers liberal arts colleges to universities. If she had not been accepted to Barnard her next choice would have been Vassar.</p>
<p>But, on the other hand, when considering academic reputation it would be putting one's head in the sand to ignore that Barnard students take on average something like 30% of their courses at Columbia. If that's the number someone here figured out.</p>
<p>But that still means 70% Barnard, so you'd better like, and want Barnard.</p>
<p>Re: "too many friends... transferring out", Barnard's graduation/ retention rate for class of 2005 is 89%; Tufts' is 90% .</p>
<p>I know that if Tufts had as strong a dance program my daughter would have given it a very strong look. Though not in so specialized a program as IR probably.</p>
<p>First of all, thanks everyone for the great advice.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I live in Texas, so visiting right now is too expensive and there aren't receptions in the area. =[</p>
<p>churchmusicmom: From what I've heard, advising is much better at Tufts than at GW. Tufts is smaller, and GW seems to have a lot of red tape. I heard this from Tufts students, though, so there's some bias there.</p>
<p>monydad: I actually agree more with your second statement (in your second post): I am absolutely positive about what I want to major in, and while I realize the value of a broad education, I prefer a more focused one. So, in that way, Tufts probably is a better fit for me.</p>
<p>lolabelle: you're right- I should want to go to Barnard for Barnard, not Columbia. While I actually like Barnard more than Columbia because it has a less extensive core, that's probably not a good enough reason to want to go there.</p>
<p>Again, thank you all so much for your excellent advice.</p>
<p>Sharone, from what you say, it sounds like Tufts would be the school that will best meet your needs --- I think you might be right that academics are a little more rigorous or demanding at Barnard/Columbia, but Tufts is an excellent college so I don't think that is a major difference. If fact, it may be a downside -- I have been told that it is very difficult for students to get into the 5-year Barnard/SIPA combined degree program, whereas at Tufts entry into the International Relations major is open to all students. </p>
<p>Anyway, as a Barnard parent, I don't think that a student should choose Barnard if she isn't fairly certain that she wants the Barnard/Columbia education and environment -- at least not when the alternative is a college as well-regarded as Tufts.</p>
<p>As between Tufts and GWU, I really think you will be much happier with Tufts. (My daughter is another kid who considered GWU early on, but did not like it at all after a visit -- kind of: hated it as soon as she arrived, only stayed for the interview to be polite and gain interview experience, didn't stick around for anything after the interview.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think you might be right that academics are a little more rigorous or demanding at Barnard/Columbia
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, I don't know about this.</p>
<p>In any case, I do think Tufts is the place for you. You might want to post on the Tufts thread, just so you can ask some more specific questions to kids who go there. Good luck, Sharone!</p>
<p>"Yeah, I don't know about this."</p>
<p>I don't either.</p>
<p>If they are actually more demanding, maybe that's not good. From what I hear Tufts is no cakewalk. It has very capable students.</p>
<p>I really don't know -- I just went to the Tufts web site and found that students there can get exempted from some general ed requirements easier than they can at Barnard. For example, at Tufts a SAT math score of 560 or above exempts the student from the "quantitative reasoning" requirement -- whereas at Barnard a student would need a 4 or 5 on an AP exam like Calculus. I checked because Sharone said she didn't want an extensive core, so I was wondering what Tufts' requirements were. So basically, all I know is that it's easier to get past some of the gen ed requirements there, but that doesn't say anything about the academics beyond that. </p>
<p>Princeton Review ranks Barnard 97 for academics and Tufts 94 -- and they give GWU 82 -- so that would also suggest that Barnard is marginally stronger -- but of course that is just the opinion of one organization. (But they rank Columbia 96 for academics, and any college book that ranks Barnard over Columbia is all right by me).</p>
<p>Anyway, I really think it comes down to individual classes and profs -- so you'd have to really look at Sharone's areas of interest. Obviously if she can get the major she wants at Tufts and it isn't offered at Barnard, then it really is a moot question. </p>
<p>I do want to say that I have a tendency to check out the credentials and background of my daughter's profs out of curiosity, and she is being taught by some truly amazing people at Barnard.</p>
<p>An SAT score of 560 does not qualify you from skipping the "quant reasoning" requirement. I don't know where yo ufound that info but it's wrong, unfortunately. You can only test out of both math courses required if you get a 5 on Calc BC exam; you can test out of one if you get a 4 or 5 in Calc AB. I know this to be true because otherwise I would not have had to take 2 math courses here.</p>
<p>----> I found what you mistook for that: if you get lower than a 560 on your Math SAT, you have to take a special math course for people with very poor quant reasoning skills as part of your 2 math course requirements, whereas everyone else can pick any 2 courses that qualify for quant reasoning. Since the average SAT Math score of kids accepted to Tufts is ~715, VERY few kids have less than a 560.</p>
<p>Here's the correct info: </p>
<p>
[quote]
Mathematics - Calculus AB and BC</p>
<p>AB 5, 4 and/or BC 4 and/or BC 3 with an AB subscore of 5 or 4:</p>
<pre><code> One acceleration credit, equivalent to Mathematics 11, and placement into Mathematics 12.
</code></pre>
<p>BC 5:</p>
<pre><code> Two acceleration credits, equivalent to Mathematics 11 and 12, and placement into Mathematics 13 or 46.
[/quote]
</code></pre>
<p>From: <a href="http://ase.tufts.edu/bulletin/gen-undergrad.html%5B/url%5D">http://ase.tufts.edu/bulletin/gen-undergrad.html</a></p>
<p>Lolabelle, maybe I'm mistaken, but I got that from the Tufts web site here,
<a href="http://ase.tufts.edu/bulletin/liberal_arts.html%5B/url%5D">http://ase.tufts.edu/bulletin/liberal_arts.html</a></p>
<p>Under Foundation Requirements:
[quote]
4. Quantitative Reasoning
The quantitative reasoning requirement is designed to impart basic mathematical skills that students will need throughout their studies. Students with a mathematics SAT score of 560 or above are automatically exempt from this requirement.</p>
<p>Students with a mathematics SAT score below 560 must take Mathematics 4 in the fall semester of their first year. For these students, Mathematics 4 will fulfill one credit of the two-credit mathematical sciences distribution requirement. Students who wish exemption from Mathematics 4 must pass the placement examination offered by the mathematics department during orientation week.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I do have to say that I found the Tufts web site really hard to navigate and to pull information from, and obviously I was just taking a quick glance -- I really wasn't looking for that, I just noticed it because it did seem like kind of a minimalist requirement. </p>
<p>I am not trying to argue about rankings of schools -- I think from what Sharone wrote that she would be happier at Tufts. Sharone is the one who felt that Barnard is better academically ... and the "ranking" type data I could find would indicate that Barnard is viewed as slightly stronger, but I do take those numbers with a grain of salt. I just have nothing else to go on, and it certainly is relevant for Sharone to consider that in choosing a school. However, I don't think it is relevant to Sharone's area of interest, given the fact that any school that offers a particular major is better for that major than a school that doesn't offer it -- it might be different if we were trying to decide which college had the better English department -- but Tufts seems to be a better fit in this case.</p>
<p>Actually I'm not sure the issue of the major is necessarily that clear-cut.</p>
<p>I think a lot of people approach foreign-service type careers by getting regular-old bachelor's degrees with coursework oriented towards politics, economics and foreign languages. Then maybe they get a job in some foreign-related activity. Then they get the Master's degree in International Relations down the road. I'm not sure the specialized undergrad degree is really critical for further work in these areas, as long as the liberal arts college has significant coursework related to topics of interest . Probably many look to the Master's as the terminal degree of choice.</p>
<p>In analogous fashion, it seems like droves of Columbia students are pursuing finance jobs directly from undergrad; however Columbia offers no undergraduate business degree. Its students take liberal arts, or engineering, but, frequently, take some mildly-relevant coursework along with their other studies. In contrast there are certain schools, such as Penn's Wharton school, whose students get undergrad degrees in business administration. But Columbia grads successfully compete with these people for Wall Street jobs and internships, despite their less specific training. Then later many get MBAs.</p>
<p>This is not to suggest OP should attend Barnard; she clearly prefers to get the more specialized program from the outset. I'm just saying it's conceivable to me that people with similar interests might come to the opposite decision. Like the people who want to be bankers, yet choose Columbia instead of Wharton. As long as there are sufficient relevant courses, the lack of a formal major in and of itself may not be seen as a huge problem by many people with similar interests. I would guess.</p>
<p>Calmom: Well, that information is wrong. It contradicts every other website at Tufts about testing out of courses. I provided you with the correct information.</p>
<p>Tufts I think is the best choice here. You said yourself (w. the columbia connection). Take that image away from your brain, and then what do you think of Barnard. Barnard is great! But it seems that is heavily influencing your decision. That is a big mistake.</p>
<p>Sharone, I was reading your past posts and found out that you are picking your school based on the assumption that you will transfer out to Georgetown after a year. This is not a healthy way to look at your decision. Think of whichever school you go to this fall as a place you may potentially be at for four years as there is no guarantee, first, that you will get into Gtown as a transfer; and second, because you should pick the place you will most likely fall in love with, Georgetown or no Georgetown.</p>
<p>(PS: I picked Tufts over Gtown ;))</p>
<p>re 17: personally I think it is appropriate to consider the Columbia connection, since that connection in fact exists and appears to be highly relevant to course selection. But IMO more with the attitude of "in addition", not "instead of", or else just apply to Columbia. But that's just my opinion.</p>
<p>But I do feel that Tufts or GW would be a better choice given OPs objectives.</p>
<p>Calmom you can definitely not test out of anyting with a 560 on your SAT at Tufts. I wish! I had a 780 and still had to take two math classes even though I had sucha high SAT score due to the fact that I missed my AP exam—whoops :(</p>
<p>Oh, and as for the OP, it sounds like Tufts is the place for you. If it matters at all, and maybe it doesn't, every girl I've dated at Tufts got into Barnard and came here. That's not many girls, mind you, but a handful, at least ;)</p>