Basic Law School Questions

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hello everyone this is my first post on this board, I've looked around a little, but I still have a few questions. I'm a freshman in college and have always thought of pursuing law, but now I would like to learn a little more about it before I make any decisions down the road.
First, I have been reading various posts on the board and it seems as if you don't get into a top law school (Top 10-15?) then you would be better off not even going into law.
Second, probably the one of the most asked questions on this board, how much does your major matter when law schools review your application? I know popular majors include economics, psychology, and some English majors. I have also heard just to take an easy major so you can get a 3.9+ GPA.
Third, I know there is a surplus of lawyers in the United States right now. Is that projected to continue to grow throughout the next 5-10 years? Or is all the bad publicity on this causing enough people to shy away from law school.
Finally, I almost forgot, I received an MIP my sophomore year of high school. (Minor in possession of alcohol) However it is expunged from my record. Would this cause any problems getting into a top tier school/with the bar exam?</p>

<p>Sorry if any of these questions are readily available I'm new to these forums.
Thank you in advance for any and all responses.</p>

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This is not true in all cases. The basic problem is economics. Law school is expensive - many charge $40-$50K per year tuition, with little financial aid besides loans; add living costs and if you don’t come from an affluent family that can pay for your education, most legal jobs available to you after graduation simply pay too little to make the effort economically rational. Competition for jobs drives down the starting pay for all but the most elite graduates. Also, just getting a job can be iffy. If you go to a T14 law school, you’ll have a better chance of landing a better paying job after graduation. But many regional law schools have good placement records for their graduates in the area they are located in. And if you have a way to cut the cost of law school - such as attending your state university’s law school (in some states) that alters the calculation as well.</p>

<p>But that’s all about money. As long as you know the facts you can assess your own variables and decide for yourself.</p>

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Not at all. </p>

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Since the barriers to becoming a lawyer are lower than the barriers to other professions lots of people become lawyers, despite the bad economic calculus. It’s unlikely to change, as more people think they will beat the odds than actually will.</p>

<p>I don’t think your MIP will be an issue.</p>

3

<p>" First, I have been reading various posts on the board and it seems as if you don’t get into a top law school (Top 10-15?) then you would be better off not even going into law."</p>

<p>That’s a myth. Like most jobs, you have to first get your foot in the door. Yes, it’s hard to find jobs during a recession, but that also applies to other fields too.</p>

<p>[Four</a> law alumni among new hires in Orange County DA office Happenings](<a href=“http://chapmannews.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2011/09/28/four-law-alumni-among-new-hires-in-orange-county-da-office/]Four”>Four law alumni among new hires in Orange County DA office | Happenings)</p>

4

<p>Ocelite, Did you notice that 2 out of the 3 who got regular, ENTRY LEVEL positions have LLMs? That means that they got a JD and then continued in school to get another degree–which usually takes at least one more year and often 2.</p>

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<p>As jonri points out, you had two LLMs accepting entry-level jobs-I can’t even imagine the level of debt they have… And the fourth graduate was accepting a one-year appointment, with apparently no guarantee of a job beyond that.
As kluge highlights, it’s all about debt; if you can keep things manageable, going to a non-T14 law school could work for you-I’d especially recommend your state school-but that’s going to require good GPA/LSAT, too, and may require quite a bit of money.
Regarding the future, at this point, nobody is staying away from law school, despite the bad publicity. That’s mystifying, but the classes are full, so if you do get your degree, plan on lots of competition for years to come.
That said, unless you go into health care, all job fields are tough; if you decide on law, just try to keep your debt at reasonable level.</p>

6

<p>“Did you notice that 2 out of the 3 who got regular, ENTRY LEVEL positions have LLMs? That means that they got a JD and then continued in school to get another degree–which usually takes at least one more year and often 2.”</p>

<p>Yes. I’m aware of the LLMs. The point I’m making is that anything is possible. People don’t necessarily need to get into a top 10-15 law school in order to have a job opportunity in the field of law. Keep in mind that we live in a competitive world, the better educated or well-rounded we are, the more employable we will be. As I had mentioned, it’s important to get one’s foot in the door, so even an entry level position will help to provide experience and exposure in order to move up.</p>

<p>“As jonri points out, you had two LLMs accepting entry-level jobs-I can’t even imagine the level of debt they have… And the fourth graduate was accepting a one-year appointment, with apparently no guarantee of a job beyond that.”</p>

<p>Life has no guarantees, regardless if you’re a lawyer, an engineer, a teacher, etc., however, a foot in the door will offer a better chance than not. In terms of debt, yes, it’s very expensive to go to college and beyond. Take advantage of any merit-aids out there. Not every school offers the same level of aid, so it’s important to do some research. [Chapman</a> University - Law - Prospective - Admission - Scholarships](<a href=“Admission | School of Law | Chapman University”>Admission | School of Law | Chapman University)</p>

7

<p>Just watch out with a thinhg like an MIP. Keep up good grades, and you’ll do great! Quite frankly, my mom went to law school, and she had a major in political science and sociology at NYU. So it kinda might matter, but not so much where it will kill ya. I mean, you probably shouldn’t take pre-med and then decide to apply to law. See what I mean?</p>

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<p>True, anything is possible; and it’s also true that jobs are tough to find in a recession in almost every profession. It’s also important to remember that the competition for law jobs-even entry-level law jobs-is crushing. For 11 entry-level jobs, there were 531 applicants; math isn’t my strong suit, but that appears to be almost 50 applicants per job-and all needed two things to be considered: a law degree and bar passage. So if you’re going to factor all costs, don’t forget the multiple thousand dollar bar review course. And it least one of the jobs-and probably several-was a temporary one-year appointment.
And what of the other 520 JDs(or LLMs, apparently) who didn’t get hired? If you’ve got the chops, engineering is a four year degree; law is either college plus 3 for your JD, or plus 5, on average, for your LLM. For a full-time student, Chapman Univ estimates the cost of attendance(if you live on your own) at $70, 959; if you live at home, the cost is $59, 979. The LLM program is listed at $32,000 tuition and books only, no living costs(for the prosecutor LLM, and it appears to be a one-year program). So if you live at home, it’s $218,000+ to get your LLM to obtain an entry-level job.
Is it worth it? That’s a a personal decision, but student loans will always be with you.
It used to be that the LLM was a specialty degree; if that’s what’s needed to get an entry-level job, then the law market is much worse than I imagined.
So, yes, getting a start is great-but if you’re making 50k, and owe 200k in non-dischargeable debt, it doesn’t seem to be a good deal. It does seem, however, that no one thinks that debt will affect him/her.
If you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. But keep an eye on debt; even once this recession passes, law schools will still be cranking out 44k JDs per year. The competition will always be tough.</p>

9

<p>^^ You act like other fields aren’t competitive as well.
For my finance internship over the summer, the said something like 5,000 people applied (all from top 50 schools and many from top 10 schools (Amherst, Williams, Wharton, …)) and 500 people interviewed for around 30 spots. </p>

<p>In comparison, those odds for law school look pretty nice.</p>

<p>The percentage of people coming out of decent but not amazing schools like northwestern and Cornell who get big law jobs is incredible. </p>

<p>[Best</a> Law Schools for Getting a Biglaw Job (2011) Above the Law: A Legal Web Site ? News, Commentary, and Opinions on Law Firms, Lawyers, Law School, Law Suits, Judges and Courts](<a href=“http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job-2011/]Best”>Best Law Schools for Getting a Biglaw Job (2011) - Above the Law)</p>

<p>Also, this ignores clerkship positions which are more often than not more desirable than big law jobs. Flagship state schools like university of Minnesota generally have exceptional placement into these (close to 15%).</p>

10

<p>I would strongly advise you not to go to law school.</p>

<p>There has always been, and will always be, a vast oversupply of lawyers, because kids who are not good in math and science will often go the law school route.</p>

<p>I could go on for pages and pages about why I recommend you not going to law school, and there have been other posts on CC that have said the same thing, in powerful and eloquent terms.</p>

<p>You will probably ignore this advice, but I give it to you anyway. This advice is not only based on my experience, but on the experiences of a myriad of friends and co-workers.</p>

11

<p>angryelf:</p>

<p>With all due respect, you are giving out bad advice. Even if a person should happen to get a job at a top firm, which is unlikely, that job is not likely to last more than a couple years, and then that person will be begging for jobs at some lousy 15 man law firm. Plus, you have to work 70 hours a week, often 7 days a week. And what you probably don’t know that once you hit about 32 years old, there are no more jobs for you, because all the firms want to hire is people with 1-3 years experience, or 3-5 years experience.</p>

<p>My son has a 2300 SAT, but I have banned him from being a lawyer. EVER.</p>

12

<p>Angryelf clearly has no idea what he’s talking about; if he had bothered to read my post, he would have seen that it stated that jobs are tough to find all over. That said, in his undergraduate wisdom, he thinks that 200k in debt for no job is a good deal. Suffice to say I wouldn’t want him handling my finances.</p>

13

<p>You’re looking at this from the wrong perspective.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The benefit of working at a big law firm initially is in part the exit opportunities and the name on your resume. The same occurs in finance, accounting, consulting, … It’s a hell of a lot easier to move from a big firm to a small one than it is to do the opposite. From what I’ve been told, after 3 or 4 years at at a big law firm, the calls from headhunters stop coming in and the world of laterals opens up to you.
Even for those unfortunate souls who do happen to be laid off before then, you’re much better off with the name of a top law firm and a top law school on your resume, than you would be without either. </p></li>
<li><p>70 hour work weeks are nothing in comparison to other comparable fields. If hard work is going to dissuade you from joining a field you are interested in and passionate about, perhaps a janitor or elementary school teacher would be more appropriate career paths. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Even as a summer analyst at a bank, I was often at the office past 2 and expected back in the next day at 9. Those who were there full time didn’t even get the 4th of July off. Medicine is almost as bad, particularly residency, and accounting isn’t a whole lot better. </p>

<ol>
<li>While you’re obviously not guaranteed a big law spot even at a top law school, the numbers, as shown above are in your favor, particularly when compared to a field like finance where they are absolutely not. </li>
</ol>

<p>People are always going to fall through the cracks. This happens in any position.
I have to ask, what job with comparable salaries is all that much better?</p>

<p>If you’re interested in law and have the necessary skills to be successful, avoiding the field because many people don’t succeed is ridiculous.</p>

14

<p>The Great Recession has caused many people to go to law school or grad school when they otherwise would have preferred to work. It has also caused people to go to law school and grad school earlier than they otherwise would have, and to go full-time instead of part-time.</p>

<p>IF the job market ever improves, it may suddenly become much much easier to go to a good law school or good grad school.</p>

<p>Moreover, the debt from undergrad education has greatly increased on the average over the past few years, so fewer new grads are in a position to take on debt for law school.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, there has been a huge increase in the number of seats at law schools in the US over the last 10 years, and some new law schools are still being proposed.</p>

15

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<p>Damn. May I ask which division you are talking about? (IBD, S&T, etc) Just curious, do you know what career fields people who strike out on finance pursue??</p>

<p>Last year, coming out of lower tier Ivy I could not cut it in IBD. My goal was to go into high finance, but like 400 kids from my school applied to 4 analyst positions at each bank’s IBD or consulting firms. (this year, I hear some bulge brackets didn’t even show up at college to recruit for full time interviews)</p>

<p>I totally agree that one stands better odds of getting BigLaw compared to IBD. However, I am not sure if that necessarily means BigLaw jobs are easier to get than IBD jobs. To get BigLaw, you have to be pretty smart. (getting into top law school means you are pretty smart) </p>

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<p>This is true. However, law school is expensive as hell to attend. And, there are many who take out six digit loans to attend schools outside top 20, many of whom will likely end up unemployed with big debt burden. My personal take on this is that if you can get into a top 10 law school - go. If can’t crack top 10 law school - think long and hard about going to law school at all.</p>

<p>Other fields have higher success rate of guaranteeing jobs upon completion of program: accounting, engineering, nursing, pharmacy, medicine, dentistry, and so on. For instance, accountants are in big demand and getting a job at Big 4 accounting firm is nearly 10 times easier than getting BigLaw, all else equal, at much lower opportunity cost.</p>

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<p>My friend is an accountant. He works between 50-60 hours a week on average. He actually told me one aspect of his job he really likes are the hours: compared to other corporate jobs, it is light on hours. Then again, others have it even better: dentists, pharmacists, teachers, etc.</p>