<p>Hi, Im a senior in High School. I am planning to go to a top 50 college and go to a top 5 Law School. (100% Dead set on being a lawyer). Worst case scenario, I pay 40,000 a year for University and according to the law schools' websites, about 60,000 a year for law school. That leaves me with $400,000 of loans after law school. (I know it is a very naive way to look at it, considering all the details, but nevertheless). Furthermore, I have heard different people saying different things. For example, a family friend who finished Yale Law School is making like 250k in his first year practicing. Other are telling me that the average ivy league lawyer makes like 125k in the big cities. Can someone who has gone through this process explain to me the realistic figures and the suggested approach to take so i don't end up paying off me debt for 20 years.</p>
<p>Anybody making 250k in their first year fresh out of law school is an extremely rare bird. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's extremely rare. Me thinks that if this is true, he either isn't working as a lawyer at all but rather working in Wall Street investment banking (lots of elite law school grads spurn law for Wall Street careers), or he started his own law firm right out of law school and has had a barnburner first year.</p>
<p>It is relatively easy to find lists of average salary of graduating students during a certain time after graduating from each school. Keep in mind that half the students are making more than the average, and half are making less. Also, know that many top law schools are out of the ivy league, such as Stanford and Chicago.</p>
<p>Wow... where to even start.</p>
<p>$400,000 over 10 years of repayment is nearly impossible. You'll pay about $50k/year because of interest. Let's do some math. Even if you get a great job (which are currently at $125k/year for the max starting salary), you can't afford that debt. $125k/year has you paying about half that in taxes, and those jobs are in cities, where you'll probably spend at least $15k-$20k/year for basic living (okay apartment, used car, auto insurance, cell bill). So you're left with about $40k/year to pay $50k/year of debt. Not gonna happen. </p>
<p>You might not even be able to get educational loans if you have that much debt - the feds will lend money to you, but private loans require amazing credit and might not want to take a chance on someone with that much debt already - leaving you with few options to finance law school. </p>
<p>As for going to a top five law school... while I would never discourage someone, I will say that it is completely beyond foolish to ASSUME, at your age, that you can do that. It's not like you're a Harvard senior with a 3.8 GPA who is saying that he'll go to a top 5 - with a killer LSAT, that's a very real possibility.<br>
*Roughly 30-40% of the people who apply to law schools don't get in anywhere.<br>
*Top schools have about a 15% acceptance rate. I believe that Harvard Law is in the 10% range and Yale Law is in the single digits. Unlike in undergrad, you don't get the effect of everyone and their mother applying to Harvard because it's Harvard. That is less than 15% of a very self-selecting group.
*Roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of the people who take the LSAT will not matriculate into law school the following year. </p>
<p>You plan is possible, but it is preposterous to state with so much assurance that it will happen. </p>
<p>Lawyer's salaries... I threw out the $125k/year number earlier, which is pretty much the standard "top salary" for lawyers. The Yale Law grad who made twice that is indeed a rare bird and NOT one that you should use as a guidepost when making career plans and taking on all that debt. Yes, you can make $125k/year. Consider though, that even if you go to a top school, you might not be able to get "that" job. You could graduate into a lousy job market (something you have no control over). You could graduate at the bottom of your law school class. You might hate law school. You might realize that working 80 hours a week in a profession where most people leave within five years is not how you want to spend your life. You could be married and moving to North Carolina, where the salaries (and cost of living) is lower. I am not trying to be a pessimist - just pointing out that many, many people go to law school to chase the big bucks and don't get them. Those that do are not always happy.</p>
<p>US News and World Reports, grad edition, will give you more information, such as median 50% LSAT and GPA scores for enrolled students. (Try to find LSAT/GPA grids on the websites of specific schools, because those can give you a good idea of how many students with your credentials get in.) </p>
<p>Be aware that your career plans will probably change while you are in college. That's a good thing.</p>
<p>In almost all circumstances, I strongly advocate that students limit themselves to $15,000-$20,000 of debt in undergrad, with the upper number being the absolute maximum. Extenuating circumstances are for those who will get out of undergrad with a professional job awaiting (engineers or those at the top of their MIT class who want i-banking), NOT for those who plan on going to professional school and taking on more debt. College grads generally make about $30,000/year (and many of those students don't even get good jobs). The Aries cost-of-living analysis shows that you just cannot take on more debt than that and pay it off with a standard city job (lower cost of living areas pay less):
*$30k/year -> $7k-$8k/year in taxes
*$23,000 left
*Apartment, city outskirts, sharing with a few friends: $600/month = $7,000/year
*Down to $16,000
*Food = $50/week = $2,500/year (this does not include entertainment/eating out)
*Down to $13,500
*Cell ($600/year), electric ($200/year), heat varies, but let's use $600/year, misc. utilities -> $1,500
*Down to $12,000
*Car payments or maintenance = $2,000/year
*Down to $10,000
*Gas (10,000 miles per year, 25 mpg -> 400 gallons, $3/gallon -> $1,000)
*Down to $9,000
*Insurance, another grand per year, so down to $8,000</p>
<p>At this point, you are sharing an apartment. Your food budget includes groceries only. You haven't rented a movie; taken a vacation; eaten out; bought furniture; gotten a real person wardrobe; done laundry;, paid for your LSAT, LSDAS, and law school apps; bought Christmas presents; or had a drink at a bar. Yes, you have $8k at most for those things - and even a modest undergrad debt will take a huge chunk out of that. Note that my $30k/year salary is slightly on the optimistic side. </p>
<p>Just saying.</p>
<p>I heart Aries.</p>
<p>The only person I've ever heard of who made close to $250K his first year after law school was Bill Walton, who resumed his professional basketball career.</p>
<p>"Keep in mind that half the students are making more than the average, and half are making less." That would be true of the median income, but not necesssarily of the average (mean) income.</p>
<p>Wait a minute. While I heard that Bill Walton did attend Stanford Law while he was injured, I thought he dropped out before graduating.</p>
<p>Sakky,</p>
<p>Walton did drop out before graduating; technically, though, he did resume his career "after law school," though not after "graduating from law school."</p>
<p>I suppose I could have used Steve Young to make the same rhetorical point.</p>
<p>In 1983, the average salary of bachelor's degree Econ graduates coming out of Stanford was over 50k, an absolutely remarkable feat considering that this was in 1983. I think that salary may have been even higher than the average salaries of Stanford Law students of that year.</p>
<p>Of course 1983 was the year that John Elway graduated from Stanford with a degree in econ and signed what was at that time the largest rookie contract in NFL history. His huge salary greatly pulled up the "average" salary of Stanford econ grads of that year.</p>
<p>Sakky,</p>
<p>An excellent statistic! It reminds me of Robert Reich's comment that he and Shaquille O'Neal were, on average, six feet tall.</p>
<p>How about the time that former Chicago Bulls forward Stacy King said "Ill always remember this as the night that Michael Jordan and I combined for 70 points". That was the the night that Jordan scored 69 points and King scored 1.</p>
<p>A line worthy of Allen King!</p>
<p>Y'all are nuts. :)</p>
<p>Is it just me or is the law school section the best section of cc?</p>
<p>Aries, thank you very much for your honest and detailed response. Although it is too far past my bed time to address each one of your comments, I would like to comment on the most important parts. Obviously 400k over 4 years is impossible/ not efficient. Realisticly, my undergrad debt will be 80K after grants, financial aid and a bit of help from the family if i go to a good school. I haven't heard of anyone paying more coming from my family's average econimic status. Although it is obviously senseless to count on, or even assume to go to a top 15 law school, I drew the example as a conditional.. if i go there, will i be able to pay it back. 3 years full time at law school will come out to 180MAX. That cuts my debt to 260K looking pecimistically (sp?). That is considering that everyone pays sticker price for law school, which i am not sure is completely true. I don't agree about your 15k undergrad debt advice, but perhaps i am not as experienced in life as your are. 5K per year debt is only possible by either going to a local college and living at home or getting a scholarship somewhere. Since you mention your advice to "most" people, i would assume that most of the people you give advice to aren't eligible for full scholarships to prestigious universities. Going to a local college usually won't allow you to that good law school or med school you want. Will it? Wouldn't it be better in the long run to take on this debt and pay it of after you get that good city job after finishing a good grad school? </p>
<p>Thanks again for you time,</p>
<p>Jim</p>
<p>Yes, the law school forum is the coolest on CC. :) </p>
<p>About debt... I give that advice to limit undergrad debt based on profession after college (those who are almost certain to command high salaries - engineers, nurses, pharmacists - with only a bachelor's can take on more debt), not based on opportunities for scholarships. Scholarships or not, you simply cannot afford to take on $80,000 of debt with earning potential of $30,000/year. If you get another degree, that debt will accrue interest and be added to the debt for the second degree. You might graduate in four years and realize that you would rather serve as a crash-test dummy than be a lawyer - but that debt is still there. </p>
<p>Rough test is that debt load should be roughly equal to starting salary.</p>
<p>Law School Admissions
Now, law schools look at two things: LSAT and GPA. Other factors count for about 20% of the application: school quality, major, grad work, region of country, work experience, essays, recommendations. Given that, it doesn't necessarily make sense to go to a really good undergrad school - getting a high GPA from a lesser-known school may help you just as much. </p>
<p>Now, if you are shooting for Yale Law, you'll need to get a high GPA at a top school - but if you are thinking top 15 or top 25, your chances of getting into law school will probably be as good coming from a second-tier school. Depends on grading policies (i.e. inflation or lack thereof; curving grades in courses), but an A- average from a respectable (although not "top") undergrad will put you solidly in the running for most law schools. Granted, you have to get a higher GPA in the first place... there might be less forgiveness. Anyway, this is a discussion for another time.</p>
<p>Financing Law School - Without Paying $$$
Consider 4-2 programmes. Basically, you get a bachelor's and a JD in six years. That will at least cut a year off of the debt for you.</p>
<p>Consider state schools for law school (I know this is down the road) instead of private if they are of a similar caliber. Also consider a greater-than-7-year plan for college/law school - perhaps take a year off between undergrad and law school so you can move to a state that has really good law schools, establish residency, and then get in-state rates. Virginia, Michigan, California, Iowa, Minnesota, and North Carolina (off the top of my head) all have highly-regarded law schools. </p>
<p>Consider rural schools, which are sometimes less expensive. Wake Forest, for example, is highly-ranked and inexpensive - considered to be a "best value" in private law schools. </p>
<p>Law School Debt
Some law schools currently cost $56k/year - which, in four years, will balloon to over $60k and will probably approach $65k in your final year. </p>
<p>Given that financial aid for law school is available (one of the moderator's D's got a full boat ride to UMich), but very, very limited compared to undergrad, let's assume full payment for undergrad and law school. Interest will accumulate on your loans (except federal), so you can safely assume, under this scenario, that you'll have $275,000 of debt when you graduate. Assuming about 5% interest rate, you'll pay about 50% more over 10 years in interest -> you're still looking at $30,000 to $40,000 annually in debt repayment. That's insane. </p>
<p>Please, please, just calculate out how much debt you are taking on, add in interest, and calculate monthly repayment for 10 years. Then, calculate a reasonable salary. Take out taxes (tax tables for federal and state can help), cost of living, etc, and see what you end up with. </p>
<p>Undergrad financing
Thoroughly explore other financing options. Many schools are not need blind; this is fine. The big concern is schools that "gap" - they will admit you, but not meet your full need.<br>
*Generally, look for schools with larger endowments; such schools are often more generous with aid.<br>
*Some schools offer incredibly generous merit aid - Denison, for example, is "buying" top students.<br>
*Consider all angles before resigning yourself to such staggering debt. This, in the short term, will involve more money - applying to more schools will give you more options (and perhaps bargaining power) in April of senior year.<br>
*There are also options for reducing debt, such as being an RA during soph - senior years (usually, that gives you a housing stipend equal to room and board).</p>
<p>Re: Statistics (mean v. median).</p>
<p>On the average, a person has one testicle.</p>
<p>May I pose a question to those who have been through this process to clearify something?</p>
<p>Is it better to go to a state school, pay less, gain higher GPA or prestigious school, pay more AND THEN go to a top law school? I am confused...Some tell me that I should go to the prestigious college, but my money is not going to stretch that far which is why I want to go to a state school and then shoot for top 15 law. Either way it goes, I am shooting for a top law school, but I am confused about which direction to take for my undergrad studies.</p>
<p>Where do you see you yourself practicing? Large firm or small firm? Big city or little city? East Coast or West Coast?</p>
<p>Why don't you just go to an lower-level undergrad school that will give you a free ride?</p>