<p>You may be interested in "The Chosen : The Hidden History of Admission and Exclusion at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (Hardcover)
by Jerome Karabel" which details how the Ivy League schools decided to switch from a focus on grades and test scores to extra-curriculars (especially sports) to deal with the Jewish problem -- i.e., too many Jews on their precious Protestant campuses. I don't want to start a sports/no-sports war. I loved the one season my daughter was on a volleyball team and I actually got to go to a game and cheer on my child in a sport. And sports do take a lot of hard work and dedication, I appreciate that. It's just interesting that what we all take as a given now -- how sports and ECs are so important -- wasn't always the case and the not-so-nice original reason for the change.</p>
<p>Oh, and thanks for the posters who said that my non-athletic son may still have a chance!</p>
<p>"And of course the obvious argument is do you care if your future doctor or lawyer was a great squash player?"</p>
<p>Actually, yes I do! Not necessarily squash, but the traits shown by many top athletes (perhaps not lacrosse) are exactly what I want to see in my doctor or lawyer.</p>
<p>If your son or daughter were drawn to the 5-college scene but wasn't an athlete, there are alternatives such as Pomona, which is listed as one of the most common cross-application LAC's. My son -- a great athletic fan but a bit challenged as an athlete -- never gave any thought to CMC but not because of the athletics. He preferred what he saw as the more cerebral student body of Pomona (which he didn't apply to, however; not drawn to the area, basically), though he would have qualified well in the SAT/GPA/editor/debater categories at CMC. I might add, however, that despite the characterization of Williams as jocky, my non-jocky son was admitted there (though chose to attend UChicago instead).</p>
<p>To me, the most valuable information from this document is what it tells us about "fit," the combination of looking for students who fit the general profile of the college (including varsity athletics in this case) as well as fitting specific needs for students with special interests and skills (music, etc.).</p>
<p>Parent of two totally non-athletic kids here, both accepted to top schools.</p>
<p>There are LACs that have decided to trim back on their sports offerings in order to admit more students with other kinds of qualifications: Swarthmore comes to mind. Even closely situated LACs can have different cultures. Williams is considered a jock school but Amherst, only one hour away, is not. Holy Cross has a strong football team, but Clark, in the same town, does not.</p>
<p>Burn This: Our older son was accepted at a variety of selective colleges and never played a sport in high school. He did have academic and musical leadership, though.</p>
<p>
[quote]
One important conclusion was that with student participation on varsity sports at about 40 percent, sports teams have a greater influence on the Williams campus than at larger universities where participation is closer to 5 percent.</p>
<p>"For better or for worse; the culture of athletics permeates the fabric of the institution here more fundamentally than it does at most any other institution of higher learning," read the report issued by the committee.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>From The Williams Record, cited by SV2 in the Parents Cafe.<br>
Even with 40% of the population participating in varsity sports, it leaves 60% of the slots available for non-varsity athletes and outright couch potatoes.</p>
<p>That's one way of looking at it. On the other hand, that 40% is, I am fairly certain, the highest percentage of varsity athletes of any college or university in the United States. That percentage also does not include the club sports teams. Even Amherst, which supports the same number of varsity teams with a smaller student body doesn't approach William's percentages. The reason is that Williams not only fields full varsity teams, but also full junior varsity teams in many sports. </p>
<p>To give you an idea of the emphasis placed on athletics at Williams, look no further than the new "cluster" housing system where the campus is divided into four clusters. Each cluster has three faculty members associated with it, the idea being to foster more informal faculty/student interaction. Only one other group on campus has a formal assignment: each cluster is also assigned a coach or other other athletic department staff member. Art is not represented. Music is not represented. Theater is not represented. Dance is not represented. Community service is not represented. Multicultural groups are not represented. Just the athletic department. As a formal assignment. In every housing cluster on campus.</p>
<p>Whatever the school is and however highly ranked it is, if you don't approve of the school based on its housing arrangements, sports emphasis, religious emphasis, Greek Life %, political bent, then don't let your child apply there. There is always an equivalent school even at the Tier 1 level. Keep in mind that what you hate may be highly desirable to other parents.</p>
<p>okay i just found this thread, and i just want to say i was <em>technically</em> a varsity athlete in high school, but it was only for one year in a sport that was too small to have a jv team... and at my small school this is not uncommon. i am by noooo means a recruited athlete... so those numbers might be a little inaccurate.</p>
<p>Definitely, the 40% can affect the experience of the 60% non-varsith athletes.</p>
<p>I was focusing only on the issue of admissions. The report I cited was actually focusing on the impact of the 40% varsity athletes on Williams culture. And I brought it up only because of Mackinaw's own post. I still maintain that 40% leaves 60%. Whether a couch potato would want to apply to Williams is one thing; but I do believe that couch potato has a fair chance, ceteris paribus, of being admitted.</p>
<p>i was accepted to swarthmore without playing any varsity sport in high school, and i realize swarthmore is one of the LACs that does not have a focus on athletics. but yeah i don't think athletics is everything. as long as the rest of your ECs are top-notch along with the academic side of your application i'm sure you'll be competitive at any top school.</p>
<p>About one-third of Williams' freshmen are recruited athletes, identified by the Athletic Department as likely 4-year varsity athletes in college. About 72% of Williams freshmen played a varsity sport in high school.</p>
<p>Being a non-athlete can actually be an advantage in Williams admissions -- almost an underrepresented minority -- if you offer something that they need, either academically or in the arts or whatever. The worst category, IMO, is a student whose high school athletics were his main EC interest, but who is not good enough to be recruited for Williams' level of nationally ranked Div III programs.</p>
<p>i don't know about the non-athletic types getting an advantage at Williams. I got into almost every top notch university I applied to, and am an Evans finalist for Swarthmore, but still was put on the waitlist for Williams. My school is an arts school and has no sports teams.</p>
<p>I'm definitely far from upset--- Evans at Swarthmore and Ivys are definitely an honor! and a hard choice to make, without Williams.</p>
<p>I do not like to write much about CMC. However, some comments in this thread need to be addressed. </p>
<p>The graphics showing the sports' participation was VERY CLEAR that is was a cumulative percentage. </p>
<p>Regarding different cultures among various LAC's, I believe that looking at the student participation in sports is quite different from what has been suggested here. For instance, does the fact that Swarthmore dropped its foolball program directly correlates to a lesser sports' culture? Further, where does Amherst fit in the comparison with similar LACs? Lastly, is there a difference between the "more cerebral" Pomona with the "sporty" CMC? </p>
<p>Varsity Sports at CMC
Men Women
Basketball Basketball
Baseball Softball
Cross Country Cross Country
Football Lacrosse
Golf Soccer
Soccer Swimming
Swimming Tennis
Tennis Track and Field
Track and Field Volleyball
Water Polo Water Polo</p>
<p>Varsity Sports at Pomona
Men Women
Basketball Basketball
Baseball Softball
Cross Country Cross Country
Football Lacrosse
Golf Soccer
Soccer Swimming
Swimming Tennis
Tennis Track and Field
Track and Field Volleyball
Water Polo Water Polo</p>
<p>Varsity Sports at Swarthmore
All of the above
minus Football and Waterpolo
plus Field Hockey </p>
<p>Swarthmore offers varsity competition in 22 sports to high school athletes with the interest and ability to play at a higher level.</p>
<p>Varsity Sports at Amherst
All of the above
minus Waterpolo
plus W Golf, Field Hockey, Ice Hockey, Squash, Men's Lacrosse</p>
<p>Amherst's Athletic program is the oldest in the nation. Amherst fields 27 NCAA Division III varsity teams</p>
<p>MotherDear - How do you go from the brand recognition which sports give to Notre Dame to waterpolo at CMC? Mom of Wild Child - What traits shown by top athletes would you want in your doctor or lawyer? I would want brains and integrity. Large motor skills play no part in most of the fields in which kids from top schools wind up. If I need brain surgery I would probably opt for a pianist.</p>
<p>amazon: That is absolutely NOT true. Sports foster cooperation, organizational skills, enthusiasm, and coordination. Many orthopedic surgeons are ex-jocks. Many cardiologists are or were runners, swimmers, etc. Many doctors generally are (or were) athletic because it is GOOD FOR YOU!</p>
<p>Not to get into a rehearing of the old battle about PhD rates, but I think the fact that Pomona has one of the highest rates among LAC's and CMC is significantly lower is indicative of the intellectual climate or the intellectual interests of the students. </p>
<p>IMO, you can't draw that much information from the distribution of varsity athletic teams, except at the extremes. Of course, at the lower extreme you will find my alma mater, which had none. Williams has to be on the upper end, and then you can add all the clubs (no late afternoon classes because everyone has their sports activity). When my son first visited Williams (after he'd been admitted) he was unsold partly by location, partly by preppiness of the students (shouldn't have been a surprise), and partly by the jockiness of the students. But I'm sure he'd have adapted and found a niche if for some reason he'd decided to attend, just like I (a former varsity athlete) adapted to Reed. He'd probably have enlivened their truly boring school paper (at least bringing it up to the level of his high school paper), and run a huge tout sheet on all the sports in the NESCAC.</p>
<p>"Not to get into a rehearing of the old battle about PhD rates, but I think the fact that Pomona has one of the highest rates among LAC's and CMC is significantly lower is indicative of the intellectual climate or the intellectual interests of the students."</p>
<p>Is the relevance of this often (mis)quoted statistic supported or belied by the fact that it is Harvey Mudd that is the uncontested champion in this category?</p>
<p>"Even with 40% of the population participating in varsity sports, it leaves 60% of the slots available for non-varsity athletes and outright couch potatoes."</p>
<p>Nope. Another 15% in JV and club sports. (that leaves out intramurals.) And some, of course, are multiple sports. (Marite - you really have to see it. ID's post on the clusters is spot-on.)</p>
<p>Caltech, Mudd, Swat, Reed are uncontested champions in this category. Where they end up varies a bit from year to year. Pomona is typically in the top 10, as I recall. CMC is considerably lower (would have to get InterestedDad's input on this).</p>