<p>In general, Cornell is still good in admitting Asian students. I mean come on, they treat Asians well and they even have special Chinese chefs on campus.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Asian alumni (and minority alumni overall for that matter) are the stingiest alumni, accounting for a single digit percentage of all the money donated to Cornell capital campaigns and other fundraising programs.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There is a notable exception to this rule -- the Ho family, which has had 4 Cornell graduates in the past 60 years and has donated quite a lot to the university. Ho Plaza was named in recognition of their generosity.</p>
<p>One rich family doesn't really change the stereotype for all Asians. I'm myself am Asian and I plan to donate as much as I can to try to help change the stereotype.</p>
<p>"Darn our race for being so smart."</p>
<p>Get over yourself. I hope you are happy being a perpetrator of discrimination and racism.</p>
<p>PRINCETON UNIVERSITY RESEARCH RESULTS
<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S11/80/78Q19/index.xml?section=newsreleases%5B/url%5D">http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S11/80/78Q19/index.xml?section=newsreleases</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
"Removing consideration of race would have little effect on white students, the report concludes, as their acceptance rate would rise by merely 0.5 percentage points."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Asian students would fill nearly four out of every five places in the admitted class not taken by African-American and Hispanic students, with an acceptance rate rising from nearly 18 percent to more than 23 percent.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Asians are about 4% of the general US population. asians are considered "minorities" in virtually everything except college admissions. African Americans, on the other hand, represent about 10-15%. frankly, it totally sucks to be asian. they have to work just as hard as other people (they're not born with a larger brain or anything), but their achievements are basically undervalued in the application process. The fact that the acceptance rates of WHITE people only increase by so little attests to the fact that AFFIRMATIVE ACTION and URM only harm asians</p>
<p>Lets be brutally honest, being asian totally sukkz in the college application process</p>
<p>I sense quite a significant contribution of Asians to this thread.
For all that are Asian, you may want to consider taking the opportunity to learn a little about your parent's past. You may find things that will make you both sad and happy. Your newly found perception of them and your family will make you proud, even under the current circumstances. May I warn you, you will discover things that you may carry in your heart for the rest of your life, both good and bad. Even better, if your grandparents are still alive, that is where you need to go. Our great history and heritage is passed through generations by family stories. Please do not be the generation who stops this precedence. A few years back, my D had to do a family history project in which she was able to interview her 3 uncles. Just their stories about our family was tough, imagine if she had the opportunity to ask her grandparents. As our culture dictates, "Please respect your elders, they are most important". </p>
<p>I guarantee that some of you will have a family history of hardships that you will probably not be able to comprehend, unless you lived it. Yes, the Asian population has always been considered second class, and yes, we were treated like slaves. No one ever bother to fight a war for us. Slowclap is an outstanding young person who has not lost sight of his past.
Could you even imagine a family of 6 living in 1 room, stove and sink against 1 wall, couch on the other, and 2 beds against the 3rd wall, where 3 sleep in each bed. There are many similar stories like that, trust me.</p>
<p>As to the Jewish race, yes they have been persecuted like no other race, but not in the United States. They are still considered the caucasian race and are accepted into this society better than Asians. I personally know many Jewish kids who were accepted into fine universities in the 70's, when most Asians did not even have a chance.</p>
<p>Today, discrimination is far less prevalent in our society than it was then. Although it exists and will never go away, you must all look above that stigma and still do the best that you are capable of. May I congratulate all of you for being such outstanding young men and women, and you have both made you family and our race very proud. I was all of you the best of luck, may you all receive fat envelopes. I hope you have the opportunity to meet my D in the near future.</p>
<p>"BUT the world is unfair."
Please refrain from saying this when discussing any 'inequity,' because, upon examination, it is quite foolish. Genocide, hey, whaddya gonna do, the world's unfair. Insofar as the situation is mutable, this 'statement' is worse than pointless.</p>
<p>"I believe you have miscontrued data to your own views. "
Occam's razor. There are a near infinite number of explanations; but they are not equally plausible. Yours, sir, is far less plausible. Not that it necessarily plays a role (I can't quite tell). It may be due in part to (visible) "over-representation," or that they are adcoms find them less appealing, say, because they tend not to be as prominent socially and communally, or 'nerdy' if you prefer. Asians would have far more political power if they decided to pursue it, as others did and do. But such leadership is relatively infrequent among Asians. </p>
<p>"18th century."
Actually, early 20th is when Yale introduced legacy admissions to lower the number of Jews.</p>
<p>"I hope you are happy being a perpetrator of discrimination and racism."
I hope you find your political piety as humorous as I do. Superior academic performance among Asians renders unremarkable (and proportionate) their "over-representation," (just as it does with Jews). That said, I'm curious as to the extent of racial pride among Chinese and Asians generally (not that I admire it much).</p>
<p>"AFFIRMATIVE ACTION and URM only harm asians"
I think it depends on how you define AA. If AA is any preference, then the academics are right, because whites receive preference over Asians, all else equal, and ignoring race would end this preference. But if this preference for whites were maintained while preference were abolished for "URMs", I suspect both Asians and whites would gain spots. </p>
<p>"the Asian population has always been considered second class"
What are you talking about?</p>
<p>i think that something is being ignored here. basically exactly what pk12313 had to say.</p>
<p>the fact that there is a greater number of Asians at Cornell than there is in the entire country says something. obviously, they are not underrepresented. please.</p>
<p>what is forgotten is the other reason that Asians and Asian-Americans might have a disadvantage in the college process. personally, i disagree with much of what this thread has to say about Asians being at a disadvantage because of their race. what i do agree with is that they are at a disadvantage because the Asian population that applies to excellent schools, on the whole, is extremely driven and set to a higher standard. i know AA doesn't exist in private schools anymore but you cannot tell me that quotas don't exist in their stead. given this, Asians are all extremely qualified (due to cultural pressures, et cetera and that's a WHOLE other topic) and therefore if an Asian applicant is slightly less than qualified compared to another Asian, he or she might be looked down upon. thus it is more difficult for an Asian student with less than perfect credentials. of course, those with perfect credentials can be rejected but that could simply be because they weren't a fit for the school. an exception. in a sense, i believe that the likely quotas that colleges create reflect an inherently prejudiced attitude. perhaps if admissions were race blind (not that i think that they should be), we might see a higher number of Asian-American students on the campuses of America's greatest universities, just like pk12313 mentioned. but hey, i don't make university policy. </p>
<p>in general, i appreciate the stories of the downtrodden Asian-American. however, you CANNOT tell me for one second that Asian-Americans are ANY worse off than anyone else in this country. WASPs, African-Americans, Catholics, the American Jew, Hispanics, and uhh Native Americans have also been persecuted to NO end in this country. Whites, regardless of creed, have been working on plantations just as long as Africans who came to this country, and treated awfully at that. there are plenty of "white American" families who have been impoverished since their journey over here in the hull of a rotting ship. African-Americans have endured an unthinkable prejudice against them since the dawn of our country, which led to an awful era of horrific treatment in servitude. Catholics have been hated since the Puritans established the early colonies. The American Jew has endured unimaginable hatred throughout US history. Countless impoverished Hispanics have lived in worse conditions than described by leftylafty. and the Native American? our ancestors decimated their population. </p>
<p>this second point of mine is simply that every group that comprises the melting pot of American society today has each had its own share of terrible hardships and one does not need to be compared to the other. perhaps that is part of why we call ourselves Americans. the problem arises when we try to call ourselves something other than American. today, thankfully, every US citizen has a great opportunity to succeed in any way possible and, yes, attend an Ivy League school. </p>
<p>oh yea and considering Jews a "race' is just wrong. on way too many levels.</p>
<p>Agreed, Yes there are many races that have been discriminated against and there are specific instances that can be associated to any and all.
Mr. Goldstein, sorry - but when did Jewish become a race?
I do agree that followers of your religion have suffered persecution that no other race could even understand. But I must rebut, Just your statement about the efforts of universities applying practices in the 1800's to keep Jews out shows of there acceptance in the system. I believe you would find it very hard to find any Asians among those alumni list.
Also, I did not find that place on most applications where is asked you to identify your religion, but I did see the race question on all the applications.
As pertaining to the college admission process, I have no need to site specifics, I experienced it, I was there.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>you called Jews a "race," EmanuelGoldstein didn't</p></li>
<li><p>Your rebuttal, as it were, did not make too much sense in English, however what I have come to understand is that you do not understand a few things: </p></li>
</ol>
<p>A. Jews have been in this country since its inception. Although they have always made up a small part of the population, this is proportional to their world population. </p>
<p>B. The American Jews that have been in America since the 17th century were (for a large part) prosperous. </p>
<p>C. To zoom out, the Jewish world population is more educated and successful than any other cultural or religious group, and has been for centuries. </p>
<p>D. Given these notions, many Jews have always been educated in the finest schools, because they could afford them.</p>
<p>E. The Ivy League did not institute practices in the 19th century to keep Jews out, as EmanuelGoldstein pointed out, they did this in the 20th century, due to the fact that around the turn of this century, the American Jewish population had grown astronomically and, fittingly, their representation in America's finest schools was 5+ times higher than their population. Backward educators saw the increasing Jewish population in higher education as a problem and made sure that their numbers were limited from then on. </p>
<p>F. Even if an applicant did not indicate their religion, someone such as (if I may, sir, use your beautiful name as an example) Emanuel Goldstein, was clearly Jewish in the eyes of the anti-Semitic Yale admissions officer.</p>
<p>G. After these practices began, the number of Jews in the Ivy League was capped and a young American Jewish man would have to deal with great prejudice when applying to Princeton in 1929.</p>
<p>Now we come to the subject of the young Asian boy applying to college. Did he have a hard time getting into Princeton in 1929? Of course, again due to racial prejudice. But you must remember that just as there have been a handful of Jews in this country since the 17th century, there have also been a handful of Asians, with all the opportunity in the world to become successful and send their children to the top schools. Up until this time, they did not make up a large part of the population, though. They began coming en masse (just as many Jews did) in the mid 19th century. OF COURSE there would be barely any Asians on the alumni list of Princeton in 1929. There were barely any Asian-Americans in this country, proportionally. You wouldn't find too many Jews on this list either. The fact that Asians might have been proportionally represented from their then small population even shows a small indication that the prejudice against them was not as intense as some may think, enough to completely bar them from admission. </p>
<p>And what of the African-American? The Native American? Do you think that THEY were attending Princeton? The Native Americans are a different story, but the percentage of African-Americans in this country compared to those in higher education...especially in 1929, for example, was ridiculous. They, if anyone, had basically little chance of admittance. (note exceptions of course)</p>
<p>Basically, all that I am trying to do is once again restate (irrelevant to what this post is actually about) that historically Asians have had no harder time in college admissions than any other group that has been discriminated against in this country. OR, for that matter, any harder time becoming successful in this country than any other group that has been distriminated against. </p>
<p>Finally, I would just like to add that your blanket statement about not needing to "site" specifics, as you experienced this discrimination yourself, was not very convincing. Perhaps if you CCCCITED an example, you would have a little more credibility.</p>
<p>Not to deceive you all, my username is merely a nom de plume, taken from 1984 (though I am Jewish).</p>
<p>"i disagree with much of what this thread has to say about Asians being at a disadvantage because of their race."
You say they are not victim to discrimination, and then you go on to say that they compete against other Asians with perfect credentials, raising the standard for an Asian to be accepted. And Mr. Li alleges that that is discrimination.</p>
<p>A. "this is proportional to their world population."
Jews are far more common, by a factor of 10 I believe, in America vs. the world, 2% vs. 0.2%.</p>
<p>B. Jews that entered during the period of 1880-1924 were very poor and worked in sweatshops, as did the Italians arriving at about the same time. These Jews were largely Eastern European and Russian, in contrast to the Jews already there who were affluent Germans and (from earlier) Dutch. </p>
<p>C. There is large variance among the different groups of Jews, i.e. Ashkenaz, Sephard and Mizrachi (Central-Eastern European, Iberian and from the middle east, respectively). eg, here is an article in Haaretz, the New York Times of Israel, saying that the 'gap' between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi is closing, but ultimately says that there remains a significant qualitative differences: ""There is a very basic difference between Sephardim and Ashkenazim in the choice of what they study in high school. We feel that students of Asian and African descent do not always study the `right things' in terms of the needs of the labor market or future income. Admission to universities is now very much conditional upon knowledge of English and mathematics, but the percentage of Israelis of Asian and African descent who take enriched English and mathematics in high school is very small in comparison to Israelis of European and American descent. " <a href="http://www.jafi.org.il/education/actual/society/egap.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.jafi.org.il/education/actual/society/egap.html</a></p>
<p>D. The Jews of the 'Great Wave' immigration often hailed from poor rural villages sprinkled throughout Eastern Europe. Schooling for most ended at best at highschool.</p>
<p>There was a resurgence of antisemitism in America because of the increased numbers of Jews, such that a prominent Jew who had co-founded the prestigious club the Union League soon after the Civil War could not have his own son inducted in the 1890's. That the new Jews were awfully indigent helped little.</p>
<p>Per affirmative action's failure to significantly shrink gaps between groups, it seems that education is not as powerful as commonly thought.</p>
<p>"Also, I did not find that place on most applications where is asked you to identify your religion, but I did see the race question on all the applications."
(I believe) They used to ask for one's religion.</p>
<p>"You say they are not victim to discrimination"</p>
<p>No, I said that they were not discriminated against more than any other cultural group that has been prey to social prejudices. What I was referring to was that I disagreed with what this thread had to say as to WHY they are being discriminated against. I think that it is because they are on average compared to a smarter applicant pool, not that Ivy League AOs hate Asians. </p>
<p>"Jews are far more common, by a factor of 10 I believe, in America vs. the world, 2% vs. 0.2%."</p>
<p>When read in context, what I said was that they were a small population in America, which made sense because they were a small population of the entire world. What you said is true, but that was not what I was saying. </p>
<p>"Jews that entered during the period of 1880-1924 were very poor and worked in sweatshops, as did the Italians arriving at about the same time. These Jews were largely Eastern European and Russian, in contrast to the Jews already there who were affluent Germans and (from earlier) Dutch. "</p>
<p>Yes thank you I knew that, that was why I indicated that this group arrived "en masse." I was implying that they were impoverished but simply did not want to offend anyone. </p>
<p>"the Haaretz article"</p>
<p>This is pretty interesting. I think that this is an exception to the rule though, with regard to those less educated Jews. Take as an example, Imperial Germany (1867-1918). Jews constituted a population that was not constistent with the amount of land and assets that they owned, as well as the number of university degrees held. With the exception of the royal family and lesser landed gentry (who were concentrated in the countryside), Jews controlled a tremendous amount of wealth in the ciites. Also, if one considers that Jews constitute 2% of the American population, look at how many made the Forbes 400 list.</p>
<p>"The Jews of the 'Great Wave' immigration often hailed from poor rural villages sprinkled throughout Eastern Europe. Schooling for most ended at best at highschool."</p>
<p>This does not apply to those born in America. Only those who were immigrants. </p>
<p>"There was a resurgence of antisemitism in America because of the increased numbers of Jews"</p>
<p>Yes, I agree, I also mentioned this. This led to Jewish quotas in the Ivy League in the early 20th century, as we have both pointed out. </p>
<p>"Per affirmative action's failure to significantly shrink gaps between groups, it seems that education is not as powerful as commonly thought."</p>
<p>I think that gap shrinking is multi-generational and needs time. Just because an impoverished Hispanic goes to Dartmouth doesn't mean that they will be king of the world. But this will give their children a better opportunity to succeed, if these parents themselves haven't already. I see what you''re saying but more education (years, degrees) and better schools leads to greater success on the whole. Of course this doesn't mean that all Princetonians are successful or that someone from South Dakota who goes to a community college can't be whatever he wants to be.</p>
<p>"(I believe) They used to ask for one's religion."</p>
<p>Plenty of schools even do now. I applied ED to Cornell but was deferred (got my happy letter RD :) ) so I also applied to Emory and Boston College, both of which asked me for my religion. I didn't understand this and thought that maybe BC was looking for less Catholics?? Or Emory was looking for fewer Jews?? This still seems odd to me. Almost as if there were religious quotas but I mean I'm sure that this is highly unlikely. I mean that's ridiculous. Anyhow, I'm a Christian (not Catholic) and got into those two schools. That doesn't mean that my weirdo theory is true but it still seems weird. It was probably just for statistical purposes.</p>
<p>So are you saying we should continue to keep Asian-Americans at a disadvantage in admissions even though they are a national minority? I don't understand this, please, I (humbly) invite you to explain how this is acceptable.</p>
<p>And the reason I talked about the history of Asian-Americans was to illustrate that asians are a part of America's history as much as any other race, religion, category, "whatever." I personally think logic would dictate asians be treated as "equals" in terms of college admissions at least.</p>
<p>I don't understand why you make on ad hominem argument about spelling and grammar. Are you trying to look intellectually superior in order to win a tangental argument?</p>
<p>Huge essays and paragraphs aside, all I got to say is that the system is broken for Asian-Americans NOW. I understand there is a lot of history behind this issue, and I'm sure Goldstein knows a lot of history about affirmative action (hats off to you sir or ma'am), but what I'm more concerned about is the inequality that appears today.</p>
<p>And unlike many of the recent posters who bash everyone else's opinions (not opinions per se but perhaps why we believe what we believe) on this board I will offer a solution: get rid of affirmative action.</p>
<p>"So are you saying we should continue to keep Asian-Americans at a disadvantage in admissions even though they are a national minority? I don't understand this, please, I (humbly) invite you to explain how this is acceptable."</p>
<p>Not at all, theslowcap. I think that certain groups are at a disadvantage in life because of various factors that stem from their background. Asian-Americans, for example, have endured many hardships over generations, many of which you and others mentioned, that I feel have held some of them back from certain things. This discrepancy should be accounted for, to some degree. By the same token, I also advocate "financial" affirmative action, so to speak, i.e. the encouragement of those from a low socioeconomic class (regardless of race, ethnicity or creed) to attend the best schools in the world so that they can better themselves for theirs and the next generation. These individuals are also at a disadvantage (sadly) because of their lack of fiscal success (or that of their family).</p>
<p>"And the reason I talked about the history of Asian-Americans was to illustrate that asians are a part of America's history as much as any other race, religion, category, "whatever." I personally think logic would dictate asians be treated as "equals" in terms of college admissions at least."</p>
<p>I think that they are given fair treatment in college admissions, in their own quota. And rightly so. I think that (as I have repeated) as they are compared to each other in a more competitive group, their quota is more difficult to succeed in, given its high standards.</p>
<p>"I don't understand why you make on ad hominem argument about spelling and grammar. Are you trying to look intellectually superior in order to win a tangental argument?"</p>
<p>Um I believe that he was trying to look superior. That's what angered me. I actually found his post insulting, so I retorted with an implication of his discredibility. Just because he is Asian (presumably) and applied to college in the 60s or 70s means that he knows everything about Asian-Americans and college admissions? I don't think so.</p>
<p>"Huge essays and paragraphs aside, all I got to say is that the system is broken for Asian-Americans NOW. I understand there is a lot of history behind this issue, and I'm sure Goldstein knows a lot of history about affirmative action (hats off to you sir or ma'am), but what I'm more concerned about is the inequality that appears today."</p>
<p>Although I acknowledge EmanualGoldstein's vast knowledge, I am curious as to why he is now the authority on affirmative action. With regard to your other point: I don't believe that the system is "broken" for Asian-Americans or whatever. They are overrepresented even, in America's top colleges, which to me seems like a good thing for them. (correct me if I'm wrong)</p>
<p>"And unlike many of the recent posters who bash everyone else's opinions (not opinions per se but perhaps why we believe what we believe) on this board I will offer a solution: get rid of affirmative action."</p>
<p>Well good for you. I'm glad that you've come up with a solution to end the pain and suffering of the world. Unfortunately, private schools do not subscribe to affirmative action. Sorry. If what you mean is a quota system? Take a look at that article that I believe pk12313 posted a bit ago. If you still think that completely disenfranchising African-Americans, Native Americans and Hispanics in college admissions is egalitarian, do let me know.</p>
<p>As far as "bashing everyone else's opinions," if you are referring to me, I am simply arguing a point. By arguing without bias and agendas, each party can perhaps learn something from the other and one or both might even change their opinion. Wow progress. What a concept.</p>
<p>Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying. But I still disagree on one point.</p>
<p>"With regard to your other point: I don't believe that the system is "broken" for Asian-Americans or whatever. They are overrepresented even, in America's top colleges, which to me seems like a good thing for them. (correct me if I'm wrong)"</p>
<p>By "broken" I meant that it is unjust. By unjust I mean that Asian-Americans are a minority when it comes to the nation but are still selected against during the college admissions process.</p>
<p>Although not all the arguments for and against affirmative action are present in these following articles, I believe they make very good points that summarize a good deal of what we discussed here.</p>
<p>I personally think the case for affirmative action is always on the defensive and appeals more to the emotions while the case against uses more logical arguments.</p>
<p>i have to make this short unfortunately:</p>
<p>"By "broken" I meant that it is unjust. By unjust I mean that Asian-Americans are a minority when it comes to the nation but are still selected against during the college admissions process."</p>
<p>I think that maybe we feel the same way. I think that we are not understanding each other though. I believe that Asian-Americans are at a disadvantage because thier quota has a higher standard, so, in a sense, only disadv. in their quota. I do not think the Asian-American minority in its entirety is disadv. in the admissions process. maybe that makes more sense? i don't know.</p>
<p>those articles were really good and i think do sum up many impt. points. however </p>
<p>AA benefits mostly middle class: 1. the middle class is not necessarily a very advantaged class 2. the middle class makes up a large part of the pop., thus a larger part of this study 3. while this is the exception, i think that the ideal of AA is still to benefit those in need. yes it's very idealistic but in aiming for a high goal we might be able to achieve slighly less, yet still an important feat.</p>
<p>AA students are less qualified (scores wise): even though there exists a discrepancy btwn SATs of African-Am and whites, i believe that this reflects a disadvantaged background on the whole and does not necessarily mean that they ar eless qualified. </p>
<p>"I personally think the case for affirmative action is always on the defensive and appeals more to the emotions while the case against uses more logical arguments."</p>
<p>i agree but i still think that the logical arguement isn't necessarily the right one. of course i respect your opinion. </p>
<p>sorry for the bad writing, this had to be quick.</p>
<p>oh yea...i do believe there obviously need to be adjustments, to paraphrase the article, why should the son of a wealthy black doctor be at an advantage over the daughter of a Vienamese immigrant? or for that matter a poor and disadvantaged caucasian? thats obviously ridiculous, background and economic status should obviously be considered but again, exception to the rule.</p>
<p>I feel bad now, I'm probably the most stupidist asian out there.</p>
<p>lol what????</p>
<p>I'm Korean and I have a 3.4 GPA, 1 AP class currently and I feel so lowly ranked looking at other peoples topics about their transcript info.</p>