Being poor hurts your (real) odds?

Paying for College
1

<p>I just read some articles in an issue of Atlantic about 'financial aid leveraging' and 'enrollment managers' and all sorts of disgusting things that selective colleges do.</p>

<p>Because Atlantic won't let you read all their articles online (for free), I'll paraphrase what I understood from my reading:</p>

<p>You know how a lot of schools claim to be 'need-blind,' right? They're not [at least, according to these writers my friend tells me are well-known]. </p>

<p>It makes sense. I mean, let's say we have a really good college called Good College [GC] with an annual tuition of $45000. And we have a really poor student who will need at least $30000 a year to be able to afford this school. Let's say also, for the sake of argument, that this kid is really smart. Not genius/champion smart, but way, way above the norm. At the same time, you have 5 rich kids who are reasonably intelligent but not nearly as bright as this poorer student, and they all have GC as their third-choice school. According to the articles, an about $6000 grant can get a student to accept his/her third choice school. So now the college can pay $30000 to get this student from a bad family and get very little money in return [I guess poor families donate less to their alma maters]... or it can pay $6000 to each of 5 kids and collect $780,000 in tuition over 4 years, in addition to donations from the kids' families.</p>

<p>So apparently what some of these schools do to prevent poor kids from getting in and to keep their good image is to claim 'need-blind' status and accept kids from lower social classes. But then they screw these students financially. For instance, our poor, smart student who can pay a maximum of $15000 a year (after reverse mortgaging and everything) would receive, say, just $10000 in aid, in the hopes that he'll get the message and stay away from GC. Not only that, but they would be able to claim a higher rate of acceptance... Apparently it's a balancing act between a smart class and a rich class, with lots of concern about ranking and the school's statistics.</p>

<p>There's also stuff about how the government is participating in this screwing of the lower class, and how it's not going to change because the members of the elite like to keep their club benefits. But this post is getting really long already, and it's really depressing stuff to talk about :(</p>

<p>I realize I'm probably going to get a lot of flames, but... well, I just thought it was worth sharing. In case you haven't already gathered, I'm not rich and I do realize that these authors are probably biased. But it is the first time I've ever heard anything but good things about all of these 'selective' colleges.</p>

<p>So you don't think I'm making this up, here are links to two of the articles (though you have to subscribe to read one of them): <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200511/financial-aid-leveraging%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200511/financial-aid-leveraging&lt;/a>, <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/shunning-college-rankings%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/shunning-college-rankings&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Work hard, apply to the best schools you think you can get into and afford. Then work hard and study hard, and you'll find that there are plenty of opportunities for anyone to get ahead and do well.</p>

<p>If you get mired down in a victocrat, us vs. them mentality, and buy into the government-is-keeping-the-underclass-down conspiracies, you'll likely stay poor, but also become bitter and angry. JMO.</p>

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<p>I agree with your philosophy. I have worked hard and I will continue to work hard no matter what happens, as I'm sure all of you will. But at the same time I can't help but be disgusted by some of the things that are done under a facade of 'fairness.'</p>

<p>As a more introspective aside, bitterness and peevishness can be a motivator... Besides, it will be much easier to blame a rejection letter on things out of my control than on myself. I guess... I'd rather be angry than depressed.</p>

4

<p>I don't know which colleges the article refers to. I do know that my son was accepted to a great, and very expensive, college (in the top ten on every list I've seen--for quality, that is, although cost is right up there, too), and our EFC was about $5000 at the time. They gave him a grant that covered tuition and a little more, and just a few small loans. He just graduated only $7,250 in debt--not bad at all by today's standards. And although he is a smart kid, he did not have a perfect SAT, did not cure cancer or write a best-selling book, or anything like that. He was just a good, intelligent kid.</p>

<p>So don't be too discouraged. There are still great colleges that really ARE need-blind and give great aid.</p>

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<p>Wow! Thanks for the encouraging words, really, and congratulations...</p>

<p>This is not exactly a happy time :(</p>

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<p>Didnt Harvard, Yale, and Pton have a policy where a student gets a full ride if his/her parents made less than $40,000?</p>

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<p>No one is giving a "full ride" what they are doing is reducing/ eliminating the amount of loans (Pton has a no loan policy) that low income students have to take out. At most of these school there still is a student contibution (from summer earnings/savings) and work study once you get on campus</p>

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<p>Sybbie, is pton's "no loan" policy still in effect if a student applies ED? Thanks.</p>

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<p>I take issue with the idea that anyone is being "screwed," since no one is owed a college education. I have read all the articles (the parents' forum had a thread on the Atlantic Monthly articles last month), and while I sympathize with poor students (I used to be one myself), private universities have to stay in business PLUS, being private, they have absolutely no obligation whatsoever to subsidize ANYONE'S education - though they in fact subsidize EVERYONE'S, since everyone gets a lower tuition than what their education actually costs, thanks to the endowment fund.</p>

<p>I agree that all the "gaming" for high rankings is pretty awful, but thanks to USNWR, no one (other than Reed) is going to put a stop to it. Yes, it would be better if colleges did not try to maximize their applications, but that's life as we know it after USNWR put out their first ranking issue.</p>

<p>There are a limited number of funds, and much of those funds were provided by the mean, nasty, old rich people who supply the endodwment fund, parents; fund, and other funds, not to mention American taxpayers, who provide the subsidies for the loans. I wonder if a Canadian should really complain.</p>

<p>BTW there have been MANY threads telling students that NEED BLIND DOES NOT MEAN WHAT THEY THINK IT MEANS. You are just very late getting the message.</p>

<p>I agree with some of the other posters. There are plenty of colleges, often just a few rankings down, that will gladly spend money to get a good student. You would be JUST AS GUILTY of letting the rankings run your life as you think the colleges are, if you just apply to places you think are "worthy" by virtue of their rank.</p>

<p>And to repeat again - and I do not mean to sound harsh, but simply realistic: look up what the word "private" means.</p>

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<p><<there's also="" stuff="" about="" how="" the="" government="" is="" participating="" in="" this="" screwing="" of="" lower="" class,="" and="" it's="" not="" going="" to="" change="" because="" members="" elite="" like="" keep="" their="" club="" benefits.="">></there's></p>

<p>Welcome to the real world. It's not a nice, perfect, fair and equal place as many would like to believe it is.</p>

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<p>Well, I apologize that my personal biases have offended you and that I was slow to get the big picture.</p>

<p>You're right, nedad, the big colleges owe nothing to the lower class, even though it's comforting to believe they do. And scarlet, I agree, the world isn't as fair as it claims to be, though the fact that this is socially acceptable doesn't make it right. </p>

<p>The world is a more efficient place when everything works through and personal gain and I would be lying if I said I didn't care what happened to me. But there are people who have done a lot for me, at great personal cost, and they deserve so lot more than I can possibly give them. I could be reasonably happy living on minimum wage - it's not as if I have high standards, but it wouldn't be... fair to these people who've sacrificed so much to get me here. I am trying my best, but...</p>

<p>I'm also searching for something that can make me feel less guilty. </p>

<p>And there it is. It's not an argument, I just... needed to release a little. </p>

<p>Sorry for wasting your time.</p>

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<p>Yes, their no loan policy is still in effect if you apply ED. However, I think that you should have your parents run their number through the pton fa calculator so they have some idea of where they stand as far as paying out $$</p>

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<p>And you are completely correct: it is not right, but because the US is a capitalistic society it is okay.</p>

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<p>As long as its possible to go to a top college with few loans, I guess it fine.</p>

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<p>But there are people who have done a lot for me, at great personal cost, and they deserve so lot more than I can possibly give them. I could be reasonably happy living on minimum wage - it's not as if I have high standards, but it wouldn't be... fair to these people who've sacrificed so much to get me here. I am trying my best, but...</p>

<p>Look, there are two fallacies here. One is that you somehow owe the people who have helped you a spot at a top school. They probably did it because they love (or like) you. This leads to fallacy number two: that the only or best way you could repay their kindness is go to a top school. A corollary in this is the implied false dilemma: if I don't go to a top school with aid from wealthy alumni and American taxpayers, my only other choice is a minimum wage job.</p>

<p>The truth is, there are MANY, MANY very fine schools you can go to, and do amazingly well (not a minimum wage job). My best friend graduated from what many would call a TTT - a "third-tier toilet," went on to an Ivy grad school, and is now in the top 5% of American earners. That is only ONE anecdote and I could tell you literally dozens more. For example, I hire people, and when I advertise, as often as not I get at least a few resumes from out-of-work Ivy grads willing to take very low pay because they cannot find anything else. There is no <strong>necessary</strong> connection between an Ivy or other top school degree, and success. I just know way too many people on the national level making fantastic salaries who did not go to schools approved of by CC posters.</p>

<p>Also: no, the schools do not "owe" the lower classes, especially the lower classes of other nations, but they have done an extraordinarily generous job of opening their doors. In many top schools, half or more of the students are on aid, often with average aid packages being over $20,000.
Also, the average gap being college cost and tuition at private schools is $30,000. Without the endowment, most kids would be paying $72,000 a year. Could they do more? Yes, I suppose so. I guess I could do more in my business, too, by giving my services away to those who cannot afford them. But I already give a huge percentage of my income to charity, and if I gave my services away, I would be out of business --- and no one would win.</p>

<p>Finally: you may very well get into your dream school with great aid. I hope you do, and wish you luck. But it isn't a good idea to condemn in advance those who will help you (or others like you, if not you personally) by saying they screw people and somehow owe you a ritzy private education. I interviewed for an Ivy for many, many years, and if this attitude of entitlement came up in an interview, I would be extremely hesitant to recommend the person.</p>

<p>Edit: a boy in my town was accepted to Harvard, but a third tier school gave him a four-year free ride, and he went there. He went to Harvard for grad school.</p>

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<p>Sorry if it sounded like I was condemning people - I understand that a business is a business even if it's run by people.</p>

<p>And to redress the fallacies... I can't comment on number two because, well, I haven't lived long enough to say anything meaningful. But I do know it's possible to get somewhere with nothing because, well, my parents did it. I guess I overdramatized... And as for number one, well, you are right - they do tell me that I owe them nothing. But I feel obliged to them anyway, and I just don't think returning their affection is enough. Sorry, it's just who I am. </p>

<p>Thank you for the dose of realism, harsh though it may be. It certainly woke me up this morning :)</p>

<p>As a side note, what business do you run, nedad?</p>