Being realistic about music

College Majors Music Major
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<p>^“if you can” :wink: A problem in voice. How many well meaning and not so well meaning voice teachers tell a young student(under the age of 19)that “they have what it takes to be a professional”? Many of these teachers a) desperately need students b) are out of touch with the current market or c) flat out do not know how to predict what a young voice will do.**</p>

<p>**more often than not: “all of the above”</p>

<p>It’s an expensive crap shoot. Yet another reason to seek the advice from more than one source, specifically someone currently in the professional music performance world and someone who will not benefit financially from years of paid lessons.</p>

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<p>One thing I don’t see mentioned is the quality of one’s peers and how that can influence you as a burgeoning musician or composer. My son just completed his freshman year and one thing that stands out for me are his peers. They are so talented and so capable, and also very committed. And because of that the quality of the “group” work is extremely high. Had he gone to a less expensive conservatory where the teacher was excellent, I doubt he would have the same peer experience. Admittedly my son is a Jazz performance major and so the peer group matters more. But at his school genres in music are not set in stone and composition students are encouraged to innovate so it is not unusual to see a classical musician jamming with a jazz musician and I definitely think it helps that everyone is at a high level of proficiency on their instrument. It is also motivating, at least to our son, to practice even more because he sees the older students and how good they are and he wants to be that good.</p>

<p>I have a friend who went to Indiana and was in the top orchestra and one of the best violinist there. And although this meant she had a lot of performing opportunities and was often a soloist, it was hard for her to not have peers who were quite at her level or as motivated as she was. </p>

<p>I see a lot of successful musical partnerships or groups that formed while students and then go on to be successful. So it is important to not just focus on the teacher when choosing a school.</p>

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<p>Just want to add that most of the musicians I know did not “make it” big professionally, in the traditional sense of an orchestral seat, or a solo career etc. People don’t have to rely on record labels or publishing houses either.</p>

<p>There have been some articles posted on here about how the music world is changing: things have become much more entrepreneurial. Technology, social media, You Tube, new ways to share music, Kickstarter and other new developments have enhanced that direction. If you want to make music, you can figure out a way to do it, whether professionally or not, and if professionally, it is often in combination with some other work.</p>

<p>So, I know composers who run festivals, an indie rock musicians who teach music in public schools and also play in a local orchestra, an indie rock musician working for a talent agency, a computer techie who composes and runs tech. at a university, a trombonist who works for educational tv, a classical composer who teaches at a state college and has made money from “new age” music DC’s, and a few MD’s who play in local orchestras. That’s just for starters and doesn’t include many who work in other fields but still do music on the side.</p>

<p>A parallel can be made with top ballet principals and soloist versus the many thousands of dancers who make their own work, or dance in modern companies, or teach, or do dance therapy, or work at a day job, sometimes a very professional one, in the field or not, and then dance on weekends. </p>

<p>At the very least, musicians and dancers can get some people together, make or choose work, rehearse, rent a space, invite people via media and social media, and have a performance. They can record it and post/share it. They may make money or they may even have to pay a little to perform.</p>

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<p>ps cannot edit for some reason, sorry for typos</p>

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<p>I know Hunt that your situation is different, and that at some LACs it IS possible to start composition in college, or for a music major to “pick up” some composition while in a cohort music program…but this is not true of “pure” BMUS composition programs at schools of music such as University of Michigan, for example, where a portfolio of compositions both written and performed is central to being granted the second phase audition and interview. Same is required even of the BFA, partial composition type programs in electronic music composition – no written score and performed score, not eligible to interview.</p>

<p>I just wouldn’t want any aspiring composer to assume that starting comp in college the most common way to go. I think it’s actually quite uncommon.</p>

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<p>Just couldn’t resist commenting on Hunt’s “I’ve heard this about Berklee …” Most of these "I’ve heard … " comments I read on this forum are myths, or at the very least very outdated.</p>

<p>Yes, 20 years ago, it was true that people would say that if you stuck around long enough to graduate from Berkee, you must not have been good enough. Over 10 years ago Berklee restructured their audition process (everyone must audition and get interviewed) and that has changed the type of student that comes in and also how prepared they are for a career in music. </p>

<p>Today, most musicians by far graduate Berklee with a degree … some of the performance majors take a semester off to tour or jump on an opportunity, but most of them swing back through to complete their degree. My D’s graduating class in May was the largest ever, about 1,050 graduates in a school of almost 4,500. Many performance majors choose to also go to grad school to continue their development. Yes, there are occasionally a scholarship student that recruited who was already well on their way to “making it” that does a few semesters and then doesn’t return, but that is far from the norm these days. Graduating with a degree from Berklee is even more true for composition, electronic engineering, contemporary writing and production and song writing, as those students get recruited by music companies and the music industry and compete in a more commercial market. And it is definitely true that education majors graduate from Berklee.</p>

<p>p.s. this particular forum thread is great … hopefully will be helpful for future music students and their parents.</p>

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<p>I’ve always assumed that line about Berklee is really a joke. It’s interesting to hear that it may have had a grain of truth the past.</p>

<p>I very much agree that you’re not going to start composing in a BM program, unless you are switching from another musical discipline (which does happen occasionally–my son’s composition teacher in college was originally a flute performance major). You won’t be able to start as a composer in a music school without a portfolio. What I was referring to was a person who is pursuing a BA. There is can happen, as long as the person is a quick study–and, I suspect, it is pretty unlikely without a really strong music background. At my son’s school, there is no audition requirement to be a music major, although a portfolio is needed to get into the composition seminar–but the requirement is apparently not too difficult for the beginning seminar.</p>

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<p>With regard to talent I want to say that I, being non-musical, asked my son’s teachers if our son was talented or had what it took. I even asked the teachers who admitted him at Eastman and MSM that question when they called to talk to him that spring. And everyone said the same thing to me: “You can’t tell.” One professor told me how he once admitted a student who he thought was outstanding. One of the most talented he had seen in years. Then the kid flatlined. That same year the other student he admitted, who was good but did not seem to necessarily have natural talent took off and went on to become an outstanding musician. My son’s private teacher in HS is very eloquent and wrote this wonderful email to me about talent and music and success. I actually passed it on to the mom of one of my son’s friends who was also applying to conservatories. That email summed it all up…judging how talented a 19 year old is, can be very hard. Sure there are prodigies. But there are also slow turtles who work hard and then take off.</p>

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<p>Musicprnt-- Thank you for the excellent post. I hope to get my daughter to read it.</p>

<p>My daughter plays Oboe and has always been told she’s the best at her school (just finished HS Freshman year), making first seat Area All-State (can’t do Conference All-State until a Jr), and does well with her Private lessons. She plays in an outside orchestra and was asked to play in a summer orchestra, without audition, but already had to many prior commitments.</p>

<p>Her glaring problem is her lack of consistent practice. If she wants to practice, she’ll go into our homemade practice room (attic!) and practice for hours, no problem. But then there are weeks where I have to nudge her to get 3-4 days of practice in. She says she is totally dedicated to music, and I think she is, but she keeps trying to do more and more at school, even though I’ve limited the AP classes she can take. Amazingly we had a guidance counselor that agreed with me! I’ve bought her books about practicing, about the ups and downs of going into a career in music, etc. As parents with liberal arts degrees that were
told we were wasting our education majoring in a science and a social science, and then having done pretty well for ourselves, we always said we’d never put pressure on our kids to major or study anything but what they wished.</p>

<p>That being said, I want DD to have a realistic view of what she’s getting into. I brought her to a retired Principle Oboist of a NY Symphony who gave her rave reviews. He commented how she must have a good work/practice ethic. I should have got to him first!</p>

<p>An old friend was back in town visiting his parents. He had went to a state school majoring
in music education, but after student teaching he said “No way!” He had always told me he wasn’t the most talented at his state school, but made up for it with practice. By senior year he was the best and got a scholarship to Yale, and has been steadily employed in an orchestra in the Midwest for 15 years. I asked him to talk to my daughter about practice, which he did. He handed her some music and said I’ll come back in 4 days and we’ll play together. DD practiced the music about 40 minutes one day and 45 another. When he came back, he complemented her on excellent preparation and playing skills. Nooooooo! This is not teaching her to practice more! And I’m not trying to say she’s some prodigy, she needs
to practice more! </p>

<p>So, even though I support her pursuing music, I feel like she’s got to do her part. I’m not trying brag that she doesn’t need to practice. She’s very good at sight reading and so she picks things up quickly, but she needs to get in the practice habit now. </p>

<p>How can I convince her this is true? And is this a sign music is not going to be her thing? If so, it’s tough because her school schedule is made out for someone that is taking some less challenging courses to dedicate the time to her music. I need a crystal ball!</p>

<p>Also, the only tip I can add is if you think you’re interested in public school music education, try to volunteer in a classroom while still in HS. Start out in a classroom that has nothing to do with music. Can you handle the chaos, do the students make you crazy, what about discipline? Do you really like teaching kids? If you like that, move on to volunteer in the music department. DD’s school is helping her to set something like this up and it counts as community service hours! It works in our district because the lower grades get out an hour later then HS. I don’t think that being a teacher should only be a fall back position, because we end up with teachers that don’t want to be there and aren’t good at it. It’s not, as Jack
Black said in “School of Rock”, “Those who can’t do, teach. Those who can’t teach, teach gym!” (Total joke coming from a Teacher!)</p>

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<p>^Sorry for all the weird spacing in my last post, not sure what happened!</p>

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<p>Some really good thoughts. Hunt is correct, a lot depends on the instrument, and for example, brass and woodwinds tend to start later than pianists and violinists. However, I also will tell you that the level is jumping for everything. For example, for the past 30 years or so, the surge in violin, piano and to a certain extent cello has been driven by an influx of students from Korea and China. The reason in part is these are solo instruments and a big weight is placed on that with teachers there, and with the work ethic found there it has driven playing levels through the roof. However, a change is happening, and now the same thing is happening with other instruments, so it may get tougher and tougher if you start late, as it does on violin and piano. </p>

<p>Someone made a good comment about peers, and yes, that can be a driving force to move someone forward, among other things, when you are in a pool of talented students, it does drive you forwards, my S was in one of the stronger prep programs around, and believe me, it made a difference. One of the advantages of going to let’s say Juilliard is the average/typical level is very, very high there, and the stellar students are often spectacular, as opposed to another program where there are some great kids, some excellent kids, and a lot more that are merely okay, and it may not be as motivating. It is part of the mix about deciding where to go, though a great teacher at a ‘lesser’ school may be better than an ok teacher at Juilliard et al. Some students would not do well being the big fish in the small sea, others would be fine. My S ended up making his school decision by the studios he got into, and he chose a fantastic studio where as he put it he would be the tail end of the studio, but being there would drive him forwards. </p>

<p>Redeye, there simply is no substitute for practice, and all the talk of natural talent and prodigies is a load of crap IMO. It doesn’t mean that kids might not have certain attributes that make them better than another kid (musicality tends to be something some kids have a lot of, other kids less, some kids have great stage presence and charisma, others not so much), some kids learn music faster, but even the ‘prodigies’ you see are often kids who have been pushed from an early age, who showed aptitude, but then because of parental pressure and pushy teachers are literally driven to perform…it just doesn’t happen without a lot of hard work. If someone evaluated your D and said she was good, that is a good step, but if she is seriously even thinking about trying for music school, she needs to carve out time to practice. For some kids, like my S, it sort of happens, they do it fluidly within their day (there is nothing that says practice has to be X hours a day,in a bunch, there is nothing wrong with an hour here, two hours there, etc) , but the real key is regular, consistent practice. I know that can be difficult, we went through it with my S, he finally understand that the only way to keep it and improve is do it every day, and for increasing amounts. Given that your D is a double reed instrument musicians, I would say it might be better to do a lot of smaller chunks, like maybe half hour chunks with a break in between, I remember I tried an oboe for a bit, and it left my mouth feeling like rubber. My advice would be she is getting to the age where she has to make choices, if she seriously thinks she may want to try for music school, she has to commit to it, and if she doesn’t, you may want to give her the gruesome twosome as my father used to call it, that she either commits to the practice, or keeps music as a hobby and concentrates on the academics. One thing about the oboe, while it tends to be a less popular instrument and thus less competition, they also only admit a small number to any school in any given year, and at the competitive programs it will likely be pretty stiff competition.</p>

<p>Another thought on ‘making it’ in music and a reality check. Others are correct, when they say that it is likely music students will come out and most will find out they aren’t primarily making a living from music, and that is true. People on here will say “well,my (S or D) is a violinist, but they don’t think they will be a soloist, there target is to work on ensemble playing and get into an orchestra”…the problem with that is it is a nice dream, but the number of full time orchestras that pay decently is small and the likelyhood of graduating from music school and getting into an orchestra job like that is miniscule. While it is good to be realistic about being a soloist (a fools errand for 99.99% of violinists, for example, or maybe 99.999%), it is also good to be realistic about how you can work in music, those who do make it, where they have music partly or fully in their lives, are smart about it, they hustle gigs from networking, teach, and do a variety of things. My S was talking to one of his teachers, a guru type a lot of pros go to for help, and he said that in music those who make it are going to be the people who recognize reality, whereas those who starve are the ones who fix on being a soloist or high level ensemble player as the only way to ‘make it’, fix on that, focus on solo opportunities rather than networking and playing everything they can, and die on the vine when they hit the real world.</p>

<p>One of the things said in this thread I wholeheartedly agree on is you don’t know what the future will hold, and the prodigy of yesterday may be the burnout of tomorrow, the kid with okay skills blossoms with the right teacher and so forth.</p>

<p>Okay, so now it sounds like why would anyone in their right mind go into music? Well, while I obviously come from the school of realism, if after all the soul searching, after all the work, after seeing where you stand, you see a vision of yourself being able/willing to try music school, if you have survived all the doubts, the heartache, your teacher ripping you to shreds, and still want to do it, and understand the competition, understand the nature of trying to work in it, then go for it. Which leads to reality check #7:</p>

<p>Despite what people think, it is okay to try music, and if it doesn’t work out, it isn’t the end of the world. There is such an incredible fear of failure these days it is amazing, and people are looking for the sure thing, and i can understand that. The reality is, though, at 18,19,20, it is the perfect time to try things and if they fail, it isn’t life threatening. If you come out with a music degree and find out it won’t work, there are still a lot of paths open, you have cast yourself into the valley of doom with high walls, said valley dedicated to music, where if you don’t make it, you can’t escape, that isn’t true. Reality is people re-invent themselves over time, and a lot of what you learn with a college degree a)is ‘useless’ in the real world, but is valuable for other reasons and b) prob at best is an introduction to what goes on in the real world, not a complete training package to working (a CS degree barely prepares you to start learning to program professionally). The reality is that trying something and failing is part of life, a natural part, and you learn a lot from it, so it is never really a failure. The typical business success story on average has 3-4 failures before finding the right one.</p>

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<p>redeye, we’ve communicated before, my daughter plays oboe. If your daughter is going into 10th grade, she should be seriously making oboe reeds now. Those take at least several hours of work per week, and then she’ll still have to practice. As an oboe player, she’ll need to weigh how good a reed maker she is along with how well she plays. Usually the difference between the #1 and #10 oboe player is the reed he or she is playing on. Have her study with a principal orchestra oboe player as her main teacher.</p>

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<p>Redeye, I would try having a talk with her, and tell her that from now on, it is her business how much she practices, that you are not going to mention it, and that what she does in college is a few years ahead and it is up to her whether she does music or not. Then step back. Autonomy and responsibility are good for personal growth, I think, and she is old enough.</p>

<p>I am not sure what role the teacher is playing, but make sure she has a good one, and maybe keep the practice issue between them so that your relationship doesn’t suffer. Staying in ensembles, doing prep classes or whatever else may continue to inspire her as long as she chooses to participate.</p>

<p>She apparently has a lot of natural talent and practices up to an hour when she wants. In three years, no matter what, she will be able to go to a college with a good (non-audition or audition) program and either major in music or major in something else, and also have the option to do music outside class, either extracurricular or off campus.</p>

<p>If she doesn’t practice, she may not go to a top conservatory.There are other options, musically and otherwise. She may also take some time off now and then return with renewed vigor, with her own motivation, and do fine with top conservatory admissions.</p>

<p>In your talk, she can tell you what other things she is interested in doing in high school. It sounds like she is busy. It is a time to explore for many, and it that is what she want to do, then trying to get her to focus her energies on an area where she has talent may have a backlash.</p>

<p>I know it is hard to step back. When she “owns” it, and realizes that application time is nearing, maybe she will practice more. I think it has to be up to her. So far, the practice she is doing seems to be doing something for her.</p>

<p>I just want to comment too on all the posts about technique level these days. I have also read that many highly proficient students lack a holistic feel for music, and we all know that technique and artistry aren’t the same thing. Living a little life at age 13 or 14 can’t hurt her music. That may be an alternative view, but I came to it myself for my kids, two of whom are in performing arts, and it helped a lot in the high school years, with no dire consequences.</p>

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<p>Compmom, you really are wise. The point about stepping back from your budding musician and letting them own it is spot on. With my own D, now 21, if we hadn’t let her step away from her classical piano lessons for a year around 8/9 grade, we would have never realized that she was secretly a jazz vocalist and songwriter with excellent piano skills. From the 2nd half of 9th grade onward, we let her determine the type of lesson, how often she needed them and how often she would practice, and everything fell into place from there (mostly, I won’t mention the first 3 semesters of college when she was trying to make use of her SAT scores by focussing on biochemistry/pre-med and doing music for extacurriculars, the music spoke more loudly in the end).</p>

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<p>Compmom-</p>

<p>A wise post, and I totally agree that the kid has to take over responsibility, if she really wants to go into music it has to be a self driven process, it is the only way. My dad used to say that as a parent, you can’t take your falls for your kids,and it is true, if the desire is there, she will have to see if she really wants to do it. If life doesn’t take her towards music, or in the way she might be thinking (i.e majoring in it), it is what it is. I think it is okay to tell her that she needs to figure it out for herself; with our S, the process was his, after a certain point we stopped with the ‘you have to practice’, he had to own it, internalize it. As time went on, we might say “hey, I noticed you haven’t been practicing much, are you okay, are your hurt”, but we also didn’t say “you haven’t been practicing, you are expected to practice 4 hours a day”…(didn’t have to, if he stopped practicing, he faced wrath of teacher, not a pleasant thing…:). </p>

<p>I also agree with living life, and though my S’s path was not standard, he did, he had a lot of interests outside music, and could (said with pride) walk into any sports bar in this country and be a hit, he is one of a kind, he is a music geek and a sports nut as well as a current events junkie, go figure <em>lol</em>. </p>

<p>Compmom is dead spot on about holistic playing, and I haven’t just read about it, I have seen it far too many times, you watch the major competitions on violin, or any competitions, and there are a ton of kids who are technically sharp, play brilliantly , because they have been so honed, and have zero musical feel or understanding (unfortunately, said kids often win competitions, whose juries are often full of teachers who go into bliss based on hyper technique and don’t care about musical interpretation, musicality or stage presence; it is why the major competitions now more and more have active performers on the juries, not someone who has spent 30 years teaching and hasn’t played on stage in more years then that). It is a balance, kids have to experience life, but with music they also have to be aware of what faces them in terms of getting into music programs and such, that is a reality, too. It varies from instrument to instrument, it tends to be IME worse on the solo instruments, for obvious reasons, ‘orchestral’ instruments have a different vibe to them, so it is important to realize that what goes on in the insane world of piano and violin (and flute and cello), doesn’t apply in the same way; but the one thing I do think is all music is very competitive, and that no matter what you play, it has to be a focus to have a chance of getting into a decent program; might not be the craziness of the violin or piano, but still has to be a priority among many:). Obviously, you D may decide music is something that is for her, that she doesn’t want to major in it but will continue to play and take lessons, that is cool, too, and yes, that is doing music:). But is she or anyone is thinking of majoring in performance, it takes a certain amount of focus and dedication you can’t get around, it needs to be there, albeit at different levels depending on the instrument/area.</p>

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<p>Hi Redeye41- I could have written a lot of your post, I had a lot of the same questions about my son, so I’m hoping my experience might be helpful to you. My S just finished his sophomore year pursuing a dual degree in Cello Performance and Math at UMich. He has always been very passionate about music, he really knew he wanted to pursue a performance career in Cello from the time he was about 12 years old and has never wavered from that path. By the end of Middle School he really had no extracurricular activities that did not involve his Cello. That being said, there has been a disconnect between his passion and his practice. He loves to “play” his Cello, but has not always loved to practice.
He has always been a very “in the moment” person, not a good planner at all and not prone to looking ahead. There was a disconnect between his intellectual understanding of the need for practice and his ability to plan and make it happen. I would not advocate “forcing” a child to practice against his will, but what I tried to do was help him with his own stated goals. We would sit down periodically and discuss how much he thought he should be practicing based on his teacher’s expectations, upcoming events and his own goals and I would help him plan it out. I didn’t tell him to go practice, but would ask him when he planned to get his time in based on homework, etc. As time went on this became much less necessary and he became better at planning. I always attributed this not to a lack of desire, but to a lack of maturity. 15 year olds brains are really not done developing yet and there can be gaps- they are not fully adult yet and I think it is ok to offer guidance based on where they are and not expect them to have it all figured out yet. In my experience it has been a gradual process.
The other major thing that helped my son is having goals to work toward. He is not good at practicing just for the sake of practice, so he entered competitions and joined quality groups such as a great local youth orchestra and chamber groups that gave him specific goals for practicing. He has since recognized this in himself and for example he took academic classes for the spring term and planned an informal recital in June with some friends and is now preparing for a recital in the fall. Summer festivals were great in that regard to keep him motivated over the summers. Also, he has found that he practices better in small chunks and paradoxically practices more when he is very busy. When he has more time he tends to go back to his apartment and get caught up in other things, but when he’s busy he will just stay in the music bldg. and practice til his next class or rehearsal, etc.
I really used to worry that he might not have the motivation to fulfill his talent and passion, but I have to say over this past year especially I don’t worry about this anymore, he is doing what it takes to make it happen and has gained the maturity to make practice a priority. Good luck, I wish you and your daughter all the best!</p>

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<p>I agree with you, cellomom, our kids sound similar! I really think DD could benefit from more planning in advance. We saw this with her Freshman year classes-- procrastination. We made her start using an agenda and for the first few months I’d check it. I think she needs to add oboe practice into that agenda and stick with it. She loves rehearsing, performing and taking lessons, which is about 7 1/2 hours a week. But practice is what she needs to work on.</p>

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<p>Hi Redeye41,
Sorry not to respond sooner. I think that is a great idea about the planner. My son uses one now and it really helps to keep him on track. If it’s scheduled and in writing he will stick to it, otherwise it tends to go by the wayside. I really wish you the best, I know your D is going to grow a lot in the next few years, it is has been such a wonderful journey for us :)</p>