<p>I don't think Berkeley is overrated outside of collegeconfidential. Most people know it is overcrowded and not a good place to get an undergraduate education. They also know about the community college transfer route.</p>
<p>^ Yeah there is a community transfer route. But most ibanking and consulting firms recruit heavily on SAT scores and GPA, so it doesn't affect people who get in freshman year. </p>
<p>Anyways, there is nothing wrong with giving spots to disadvantaged people who change their lives, instead of rich dumb daddy's kids at upper tier privates. </p>
<p>Classes are overcrowded in the major courses like Econ 1, but you get TA sections to make up for that. Upper division courses are not crowded, and you can get lots of personal attention from the #1 rated faculty in the world if that is your thing. Also with recent reports that Harvard students have less access to their professors than at many public schools, it makes you realize that studying and having great professors is the best way to make the most out of any education.</p>
<p>Uber--everyone "knows" some underserving person that got into some unbelievable school. So what. The stats for UCB are excellent with an average SAT now in the mid 1300's and virtually all the students in the top 10% of their class and most in the top 5%.</p>
<p>^ Thats best one sitting SAT score average. If you use the best verbal + best math SAT average that most private schools use (and most people use when they tell others their "SAT Score"), Berkeley's average SAT will be around 1390-1400.</p>
<p>Given that there are 3500 incoming freshman, with the 75th percentile at 1500 SAT (using best math + best verbal), that means Berkeley has about 875 students that have a 1500+ SAT score. This sheer number is the highest out of any university in the US.</p>
<p>That's correct West Sidee, most state universities (UCs, Texas, Wisconsin, UNC, Michigan, UVA, W&M etc...) only look at best one sitting scores, which on average, are about 50 points lower than best of each-section scores reported by most private universities.</p>
<p>Why would you even argue about San Francisco? Of course it is going to have more Berkeley graduates, it's in California! Maybe we should start comparing Northwestern graduates in Chicago and New York. I'm sure Northwestern would come out on top. Anyways, I don't know anyone who wants to do I-Banking in San Francisco; if it is in California, it is most likely Los Angeles.</p>
<p>How are we supposed to take you seriously West Sidee when you champion the London Times Ranking and proclaim Dartmouth as one of the worst science schools in the country?</p>
<p>Not to mention you bash Ivy League students for not liking Berkeley, but at the same time you start threads bashing the Ivy League and how they don't compare to Berkeley. What is it with you and trolling Berkeley?</p>
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That's correct West Sidee, most state universities (UCs, Texas, Wisconsin, UNC, Michigan, UVA, W&M etc...) only look at best one sitting scores, which on average, are about 50 points lower than best of each-section scores reported by most private universities.
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<p>I wonder if this issue will ever get standardized. Hopefully for the sake of academic integrity, it will. Most of us report our best verbal+ best math on our resume's anyways, but it still needs to be issued on a university wide basis, especially when people compare school criteria. </p>
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<p>You really didn't read my comments at all. San Francisco has quite a large investment banking community. During the tech boom of the late 90's -2001, most investment bankers chose offers in SF over NYC. There is very little if any investment banking in Los Angeles, and most of it is middle market i banks, like Houlihan Lokey. Perhaps you aren't familiar with the HARM (Hambrecht & Quist, Alex Brown, Robertson Stephens, Montgomery) banks of SF that revolutionized tech IPO's. </p>
<p>Anyways, like I said, I have never met a NW graduate in investment banking in SF. If you go to Chicago, you will find plenty of Berkeley grads working in investment banking in Chicago. And by the way, outside of NYC, San Francisco has the biggest investment banking, finance community around.</p>
<p>The investment banks in San Francisco are regional institutions. It isn't 2001 and the tech boom is long over so that is a moot point. If you want to bring back the past I can bring in Drexel in Los Angeles. Given the chance to either go to the New York or San Francisco office of Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank, Citi, CS First Boston, JP Morgan or Lehman Brothers I think we both know what is the obvious choice. </p>
<p>Unless one has connections back in California, San Francisco is the furthest thing from most east-midwest college graduates minds.</p>
<p>Two points:</p>
<h1>1) West Sidee, the need to standardize SAT score reporting is not necessary. Graduate adcoms and employers do not care about mean SAT scores or % accepted. Very shallow and petty people, as well as wet-behind-the-ears high school students may judge a school by such a shallow measure, but most corporate recruiters at elite firms and adcoms at top graduate programs will regard top students from top universities alike.</h1>
<h1>2) This who depbate between Cal and NW is pointless. Both are amazing universities. Nobody can truly claim that one is superior to the other. In academic and corporate circles, they are both considered amazing and both are highly regarded. One should pick between the two based on personal preference since they are both incredible academic institutions.</h1>
<p>^ uc_benz. Connecticut has all the PE firms. And CSFB, MS etc.. still have their tech HQ in IPO's and M&A out in the Bay Area. The Bay Area is still the capital of venture capital, and most of the new hedge funds and new upstart investment banks outside of NYC are in the Bay Area. NYC is still the capital of finance, but if one were to focus on tech finance or venture capital, SF is still the place to go. </p>
<p>^ Alexandre, I agree. My diplomacy skills leave much to be desired. NW is a great school, but all the bashing on public schools on misinformation has got to stop. Many people choose public schools over privates not because of money issues, but also because of environment, regional preference, and a better fit. I am sick of all the bashing on public schools, it deters from the true academic excellence of US schools, and I see a lot of non US institutions catching up, and all the public school bashing certainly doesn't help that situation.</p>
<p>I respect both schools tremendously.
With that said, there are about 15 people from my class going to Cal next year. There's MAYBE 1 or 2 of them that could have been accepted at Northwestern. Most of them would be in the bottom 10% of the applicant pool (at least in terms of SAT scores, AP classes taken, and GPA).
Nobody doubts the tremendous national and global reputation of a Berkeley diploma. And because it is a larger school, with a more storied history (FSA, anyone?), of course more people will know about it. However, you are not trying to impress the chinese, the europeans, or the parents of the deadbeat kids in your high school that want to know where you're going to college and expect to hear the name of some place thats fancy and they recognize. An NU degree will elevate you to the ranks of people who know what an NU degree is.. and among them, there is no doubt that NU students are tops.
So if we can shut up about prestige, lets compare the undergraduate atmosphere:</p>
<p>Berkeley: really, really large lectures
NU: a few lectures first year (maybe 80 people), but mostly seminars (15-25 people)</p>
<p>Berkeley: dirty hippies and recreational drug use rampant, as well as the frat/party scene
NU: just the frat/party scene</p>
<p>Berkeley: the east bay (you could come to the city sometimes, but for most berkeleyites, thats a once a month or so trip)
NU: evanston (better town than berkeley) and chicago (just as good of a city as SF, but closer to NU than Cal is to SF)</p>
<p>Berkeley: middle class
NU: upper middle class, upper class</p>
<p>Berkeley: crowded, overgrown campus
NU: expansive, beautiful campus with a view</p>
<p>Berkeley: beat stanford by 30 in football, should have been in the rose bowl last year
NU: basketball team has never made the NCAA tourney, football team is pretty horrid at the moment as well</p>
<p>there are more... obviously, some of these are neutral categories, and in some respects, berkeley is better in some. My point is, these are the options you should be weighing, not petty insignificant differences in what USNWR or somebody in japan thinks of your diploma.</p>
<p>TheCity, you did it! I think your right...... I visit Cal and NW in the next 4 days to see if they live up to the hype</p>
<p>After, and only after, will i be able to report my decession. But based on your advise atleast, i am now leaning towards Northwestern! </p>
<p>See you all in 4 days, I'll post my decession then :)</p>
<p>Well, I am not sure which high school you went to TheCity, but Berkeley isn't just about prestige, but their professors are the best in the world. What you learn at Berkeley is very valuable for the rest of your life. And the large classes at Berkeley only apply to the core classes, like Econ 1. Once you get past your pre-reqs, the classes are much smaller and you get a lot more personal attention. Also, I wouldn't describe the people at Berkeley as "middle class". There are a lot of rich people who just like to dress more humbly and live ordinary lives. </p>
<p>Northwestern is located in Evanston, I have been there, and I am really glad I went to Berkeley. The weather is freezing in Chicago, and all my friends at Northwester really regret not going to UCLA when it is wintertime and also when they compare their social lives to their friends at UCLA. I loved Berkeley because of the "Berkeley experience". </p>
<p>Over 30 students from my high school went to Berkeley. Our SAT average in my high school is higher than that of Northwestern. No one even bothered applying to NU or NW because the common belief was the only Harvard and Yale were worth going out of state for.</p>
<p>How the hell did you find their xangas? and how does one sort thru all that?</p>
<p>Well evidently West Sidee has time to read through each one. But I wouldn't recommend reading through random Xangas in order to pick a college.</p>
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How the hell did you find their xangas? and how does one sort thru all that?
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<p>I have a xanga. And I have a buncha friends who go to Northwestern and a bunch more that go to Berkeley. Pretty much every single school is covered. I think you can tell that the students have vastly different outlooks on life, personality, lifestyle, friends, social life, and general levels of happiness just by looking at a few of them. This is a very very accurate picture of what is really going on, especially since no one on xanga is paid to present their school in a different fashion, compared to NU/NW marketers and Berkeley CALSO guides. </p>
<p>I do not know why uc benz and the city have such problems with all information being known. I have never said anything nasty to you guys, nor have I engaged in spreading false information. TheCity, while I can understand why u would want to get away from SF because you live here, (also its a 15 minute bart ride to SF from Berkeley), I also wanted to get away from Los Angeles and my parents. hehe. But you should consider that endersgame nor others may not be in the same situation as you, and everyone has a right to objective information, don't you agree?</p>
<p>All I said is let endersgame decide for himself. Don't judge a book by its cover. Read the book, and decide for yourself. You deserve to give yourself that much time because where you choose to go to college and live the most impressionable years of your entire life is very very important for anyone.</p>
<p>The Chinese(1 billion or more) and the Indian(1 billion or more) will spread the reputation of Berkeley overseas, so there is no need to advertise.</p>
<p>what the hell are you trying to say susieQ? I dont think when businessmen travel oversees and meet with asians or indians, that "what college did you go to" is what theyre talking about as they discuss their plans and offers. And the large portion of chinese/asians at UCB is almost entirely second or third generation, who have come to america for financial opportunity, not an education to go back to china with. </p>
<p>I dont know too many bankers (I cant stand people who make money and do nothing else).. but here are the ones I know: One is a graduate of Grinnell (LAC in Iowa) another went to Univ. of San Francisco undergrad and Kellogg (Northwestern) for his MBA. They both work as i-bankers in the sf bay area.</p>
<p>SF used to be a huge center of banking.. until bank of america moved out when they merged. We still have huge corporations, financial firms, and such. Of course its not as rich as new york city, but I think the choice should be made on what city you would rather live in, not based on marginal differences in the amount of firms HQ'd there.</p>
<p>New York is THE place to be for I-Banking, I don't know what the argument is about. You can go to your little piddly upstart banks, but the majority of people like established firms. And in New York, Northwestern would have the better reputation.</p>
<p>TheCity, Why hell are you swearing at me for? I just mention the fact that are more Chinese and Indian(total), word of mouth will spread because there are a lot of Indian and Chinese at UCB so UCB has better world reputation. Is that not true?
I never did mention which school is better? I don't care about i-bankers because I don't think EndersGame's question was which school is better for i-bankers, it's for political science.
As for the other thread that says SAT does not matter for recruit, that is not entirely correct, GOOGLE asks for SAT score before they interview. Some hr also ask to have your transcript fax over also.(I know this for a fact)</p>