<p>I am deciding between Occidental College and UC Berkeley for economics. Both have good programs, but one is obviously more recognizable than the other. However, what do grad schools look for most in graduate admissions? The institution? High GPA? High GRE scores? </p>
<p>What GPA at Berkeley would be competitive for job recruitment and grad school? How difficult is it to get this GPA compared to peer institutions (Stanford, Pomona, Northwestern, and other universities with generally smaller classes)? </p>
<p>I'm afraid of attending Berkeley mainly because of the sheer class sizes compared to its peer institutions, and the incredible difficulty of acquiring good recommendations compared to other universities. To Berkeley students: is it all worth it?</p>
<p>One more question, is it arguable that doing well at Berkeley is harder than doing well at an ivy league or another top 20 school?</p>
<p>Grad schools and jobs look at all of the above mentioned things. I'm sure many students from occidental get into great grad schools or get great jobs, and the same can be said about Berkeley. If you do well in either you will most likely get what you want in terms of jobs or grad school. I've found it easy to get good recommendations at Cal, and one thing that I'm sure of is that there are alot more famous professors at Cal than at occidental. Is it worth it? It was for me, but it probably isn't for everyone. I don't think Berkeley is unique in that they can't please everyone. As for it being harder at Cal than at other schools, I can't really say because I've only gone to Cal.</p>
<p>As far as grad admissions go, it's really all about who your recommenders knows and what profs at other schools think of her/him. Profs at Berkeley tend to be extremely well connected because they tend to be at the top of their field. So, if you go to Berkeley, major in Econ, do well, and befriend a couple of the higher-end profs (3 is a good number,) you'll probably get into you're first choice grad program. Just know that getting to know Berkeley profs as an undergrad is no easy task.</p>
<p>Dobby, I don't think getting to know profs is hard. I don't mean that I'm having dinner at their houses, but I know them well enough to get a good recommendation.</p>
<p>Look, nobody's saying it's tough to get a "good" recommendation. But it certainly IS tough to get a recommendation that has a 99 or so % chance of assuring your admission to the world's top program in your field. What I mean by that is the prof does not hesitate to label you as the single best student in their teaching career. Grad rec forms almost invariable ask for such ratings, leading me to conclude that attempting to increase one's chances of gaining admission to a "top" gram program as a Berkeley undergrad is pretty tough - if only because there are so many students at Berkeley clamoring to get on profs' "top students" lists. The same happens at top privates, but probably to a lesser extent since the faculty-student ratio is much more favorable for students.</p>
<p>I hate to break it to you dobby, but there aren't many professors in the world that can assure you admission to the top programs in the world. Letters of rec are only one part of grad school admission. That said, a recommendation from a pulitzer or nobel prize winner will help you more than some no name.</p>
<p>
[quote]
there aren't many professors in the world that can assure you admission to the top programs in the world.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Obviously that's the case. But I'm not talking about the world. I'm talking about Berkeley. There are tons of professors at Berkeley who can essentially guarantee undergrads admission to the world's top programs. Heck, plenty of first year grad students in Berkeley's world class programs come from Berkeley undergrad itself. Why? Because the profs here were pretty impressed by them as undergrads. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Letters of rec are only one part of grad school admission.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well yeah, but they're pretty much the most important part. Think about it. GPA is really only important for screening purposes. If you have less than a 3.0 you're probably not smart enough for grad school. The GRE is even less important. Personal statements matter somewhat. Extracurriculars/work do not matter unless directly related to your research. That said, undergrad research is extremely important and its best if you get it with the profs who will recommend you. So essentially, the recs matter the most. The best letters come from profs who are connected to profs at your first choice grad school are the ones that will get you in. They're the ones that will tell the adcom what kind of person you are and how you would fit in to the program, whether you're a good researcher, and whether or not the program would be proud to have you as an alumnus 40 years down the line.</p>
<p>Doby, when you said that recs from Berkeley professors will get you into "you're first choice grad program," I assumed you meant the best schools in the world. As good as Berkeley is, there are certainly other options when it comes to "first choice" schools. So my point remains the same, that recs will help you, but very few will guarantee you a spot in your first choice grad program.</p>
<p>as a berkeley alum who just went through the circuit of applying grad schools, i can tell you that berkeley is very well represented in all interviews i went to.</p>
<p>to address your concerns:</p>
<p>yes berkeley is a tough place to get a high GPA. courses r competitive and tough in general, but you learn alot. if you only care about the number, berkeley probably not the best place. but if you care about learning stuff, i think berkeley can be as good, if not better than other places. i talked to people from different schools all over the country during my interview trips. i feel that my berkeley education prepared me very well in a broad spectrum of subjects. (and my GPA is by far not stellar). however, classes here can be pressure cookers. all nighters and caffeine overdose are unavoidable. for the application purpose, i think most schools understand grade deflation in schools like berkeley or ucla. if you dont screw it up too bad, you are probably ok.</p>
<p>i dont think getting good rec's r that difficult. there are a lot of opp's for people who are considering grad schools. prof's r usually pretty friendly towards grad school bound undergrads unless you r proven to be unworthy (hint: dont ask too many stupid questions, not a good idea to test prof's patience). go to office hours, and talk to your gsi will definitely help. there are outside activities for people who really want to know their prof's. i attended several luncheons w/ prof's during my time there. it was really fun to know your prof's outside academic. as for letters themselves, dont worry, no prof's will mark anybody as "the best student they ever had". that's pretty lame. they usually write honest opinions of you and it is pretty much always positive (once a while, you will find an a-hole agree to write a letter but say something like "i know nothing about this student", people who r not gonna write a good letter usually refuse your request.) there is no magic letter that gets you everywhere, but if you present a good package, you are in a good shape.</p>
<p>i dont believe that doing well in berkeley is much more difficult than in an ivy league school. you learn different things at different schools. something you learn at berkeley (independent, assertive) that you wont find in an ivy league school. you just need to find a program that fits you the best. good luck, and i hope i answered your question.</p>