<p>UCSD--first choice for many interested in BioEngineering. Many times better than any Ivy.</p>
<p>UCBerkeley--first choice for many hard core Engineering and Science majors who want the California lifestyle at a school that is literally the largest melting pot of world cultures.</p>
<p>UCLA--there are people who DREAM of nothing but being a Bruin. There are no other colleges.</p>
<p>Sorry to break it to you guys, but Berkeley is a CLASSIC back-up school for Ivy League applicants as well as applicants to Stanford, MIT, and CalTech. I'm a senior at Berkeley and I've met tons of people over the past 3.5 years that settled for Berkeley because they didn't get into <strong>insert Ivy League university here.</strong> Amazingly, I've met many more Ivy rejects at Cal as opposed to Stanford rejects. Personally, I'm at Berkeley because I didn't get into Harvard or Princeton. However, Berkeley is definitely not alone in the "ivy-backup" category. Other notable Ivy backup schools include the University of Chicago, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins University, the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, the University of Virginia, and Washington University of St. Louis. Although I did enjoy my years at Berkeley, it definitely wasn't my first choice school for a multitude of reasons. The class sizes at Berkeley are just gargantuan, the resources for student support are minimal, budget cuts have definitely affected the quality of education, and Berkeley's dependence on GSIs (graduate student instructors) is also detrimental to the quality of education here. </p>
<p>If anything, Berkeley is a place where you should go for your PhD and NOT for your bachelor's degree. Berkeley's PhD programs are the best in the nation and that explains why the National Research Council rankings consisently rank Berkeley in the top 5 in practically every single discipline. The Berkeley undergraduate experience is basically similar to the undergraduate experience at virtually every other top-tier public university. Yes, the faculty at Berkeley is phenomenal, but you'll have limited interaction with them in office hours. Even my upper division courses have 200+ people in them. Ironically, I have to stop posting right now because I have to walk to Pimentel Hall to attend an upper division lecture with roughly 400 other students (not exagerrating).</p>
<p>Look, guys, privatejoker06 has summarized the situation fairly well. Berkeley's got problems, and I don't think you're really doing anybody any favors by trying to pretend that it doesn't have problems. The fact is, I think it is fairly indisputable, that if a person gets into one of HYPSMC as well as Berkeley, then unless price is a problem, then that person is probably going to choose the former. Yes, there are always going to be some guys who turned down HYPSMC for Berkeley, but I think we can all agree that the majority would not do so. Or, case in point, take some random students at Berkeley and ask them if honestly would still have chosen Berkeley if they had gotten into Harvard, I think it's safe to say that if they were being honest, they would probably have chosen Harvard. Does that mean that Harvard is perfect? Of course not. But it does mean that undergrads tend to prefer Harvard over Berkeley.</p>
<p>But that by itself should not be cause for alarm. Look at the situation the other way. While Berkeley is not as highly desired as some schools are, Berkeley is more desired than other schools are. A lot of people at the lower UC's would prefer to go to Berkeley, but couldn't get in. I would imagine that there are not a lot of people who got admitted to both Berkeley and Davis who chose Davis. And clearly Berkeley is far more desired than the CSU's are. I would venture that there not many people who would turn down Berkeley to go to San Jose State. </p>
<p>So it's all just a recognition of where Berkeley stands in the totem poll. In all honesty, Berkeley is probably not the best undergraduate program out there. On the other hand, it's a lot better than many others.</p>
<p>I don't know, Sakky. Yes, education-wise the Ivies probably give you a better deal than Berkeley (if cost is irrelevant). Berkeley does have many problems, but it's not as bad as some make it out to be. Really, if you're good enough to get in, you should be good enough to figure out your way through graduation. All the people complaining about large classes are just lazy. Most of the kids don't show up to lecture anyway, so it's not like you don't have a place to sit. The GSI's (grad student instructors) are oftentimes much better at explaining the material than the prof (even if you go see the prof at office hours), so I don't see this as a drawback. If you absolutely hate GSI's, all of the profs are required to have office hours. Once again, nobody ever goes because either people are smart enough to figure it out on their own, or they're lazy. And if you're lazy, don't complain. It's your own fault. It would still be the same way if you went to an Ivy. You have to take initiative. I guess the only difference is that Harvard can afford to hire people to periodically remind you not to fail your classes, while at Berkeley it's your responsibility.</p>
<p>Berkeleygirl: How are all the people complaining about large class sizes lazy? The people that complain about the gigantic lecture sizes at Berkeley complain because there is little to no individual attention given to them from the professor and because some people really don't like the feeling of anonymity you get when you're 1/400 students sitting in Wheeler Auditorium. Part of the reason why the undergraduate education offered at Berkeley is inferior to the undergraduate education offered by Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, and Penn is because the class sizes at these Ivies are much smaller than the class sizes at Berkeley so the students receive more individual attention and feedback from their professors. As for your comment about some GSIs being better teachers than the professors, I really have no clue where you get this idea from. The GSIs at Berkeley are focused on the same thing the professors are focused on...research. Most of the time, the GSIs are teaching sections NOT because they want, but because they HAVE to in order to keep their graduate stipends/fellowships. </p>
<p>As for people that don't go to lecture, do you think that this is the same case at the Ivies? Do you think large numbers of students at Harvard don't attend their general chemistry lectures? Given that Harvard attracts a MUCH higher caliber of students than Berkeley, this is definitely not the case there. The Harvard Crimson published an article about student attendance rates and it was crystal clear that the vast majority of Harvard students attend classes with much more regularity as compared to Berkeley students. From the sample of Berkeley classes that I've been in over the past 3.5 years, the class attendance of lectures with over 300+ students in them tends to dwindle down to about 50-70% midway through the semester. If the professor was particularly poor, it would dwindle down to about 50%. If the professor was very effective, it would usually hover around 70%.</p>
<p>I disagree with the assertion that Berkeley is an ivy league reject school. I will concede, however, that there are a great deal of Stanford rejects, a fair share of MIT rejects, and a smattering of Harvard, Yale, and Princeton rejects. But as for the other 5 Ivies (and Caltech), there are very few. </p>
<p>But think about it. Every selective school in the nation other than HYPSMC themselves, and probably Columbia and Wharton, could be thought of as HYPSMC-reject schools.</p>
<p>And, for those complaining about the size of classes, you can't possibly think that Cornell fares much better than we do.</p>
<p>For a public school, Berkeley is unbelievable. It's not big competition for Harvard and MIT and Stanford and the like, but it is for some of the Ivies and for pretty much every other big school. That's huge. And tuition is just a fraction of the cost in-state. $6,200 for Berkeley VS $30,000 for Stanford is definitely going to create some competition.</p>
<p>Don't forget that for us OOS the total cost of Berkeley equates with Stanfords (approx. 40,000).</p>
<p>That and Stanford is way better.</p>
<p>I like Stanford, but it's a little...sterile? Kind of artificial in a way, like Disneyland sitting in the middle of seedy Los Angeles. At least it feels that way.</p>
<p>I got a creepy vibe from stanford when i visited ow well, i'm expecting a reject</p>
<p>I got the same feeling as aim78 when i visited my junior year in high school. Stanfurd seemed almost too artificial. I mean college is supposed to basically be the start of your adult life, at Stanfurd it seems that you are coddled a little too much. That just gave me a really bad feeling.</p>
<p>In all seriousness, both are good schools, but i'd say that deep down inside they appeal to different types of people, be it those who like a challenge, or those who want a more nuturing atmosphere. I know that i made the right choice for me. I'd say that if you applied to either or both, go and take a tour if you haven't already and get your own feeling about it. Go with your gut and you'll be much happier than if you didn't. To each his own.</p>
<p>Stanford is sterile? Artificial? An unrealistic utopia? Haha. Just because somebody has a better campus than you, it doesn't mean they are fake or articificial. It just means you're poor. Get over it.</p>
<p>Stanford sucks dude. Silly Ivy League wanna be. </p>
<p>You'll never be as good as Harvard, EVER!</p>
<p>LOL. Quite a few of us at Stanford were accepted to both schools. Can you Berkeleyans say the same?</p>
<p>They probably can't. But comparing Berkeley to HYPSMC is an unfair comparison. It's like comparing Berkeley to the CSU's and then trashing the CSUs for how much they suck. Everything is relative.</p>
<p>rooster08 continue your rant because you are just reinforcing my desire to NOT go to school in california, I would not want to go to school with people like you(yes, I know I'm generalizing to the entire student population which I'm sure has much nicer and less arrogant people, in fact, I know some)</p>
<p>It makes me wonder why you're always on the Berkeley forums rooster...</p>
<p>"rooster08 continue your rant because you are just reinforcing my desire to NOT go to school in california, I would not want to go to school with people like you"</p>
<p>Mission accomplished. I don't want you in California either :)</p>
<p>good, keep your stanford</p>