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The average American doesn't sit down and read every ranking to come to a decision as to what a school's ranking is like. They do this though more esoteric means-- perceived academic quality, academics, quality of grads, halo effects of graduate programs, location, and halo effects of sports.
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<p>If the world knows that the US government is transforming Berkeley into becoming the foremost University of America -- which we usually call it as NATIONAL University -- top students would have a hard time turning it down.</p>
<p>I'm the first to admit that UCLA is not quite at Cal's level. However, I have a lot of experience with this both as a UCLA grad and in the "real world."</p>
<p>And again, you're ignoring what I'm saying: Americans WON'T GO FOR A NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. Please understand this. I'm begging of you. It won't work. For one, there doesn't exist the will in the states to give up their flagship universities' positions to on state (states rights and all that). Similarly, why would Michigan citizens want to pay for Cal when Michigan is regularly cited as a clear academic equal?</p>
<p>And really, where is Cal going to get the $20+ billion dollars from? You realize, I hope, that Harvard has had hundreds of years to build up an endowment rivaling that of some major corporations?</p>
<p>As someone who has grown up in New England my whole life I'd like to give my 2 cents on this topic. Both sides were argued very well and it makes this thread both entertaining and informative to read. Coming from the Boston area I can tell you that we all realize Harvard is "the school" but nobody really gives a **** cuz there kid can't make it in. When you cut enrollment the fact is, fair or not, those with "connections" and "$" are going to get in. We all know that certain people get into schools that they shouldn't, and if Berkeley were to become a HYPS this sort of thing would happen. Though from Boston I take no pride in the fact that Harvard is from my city, because most people in Mass see harvard as a great school, but one that is also caught up in so much BS and scandal every year. Great school, but nobody is <em>proud</em> harvard is in boston. </p>
<p>Also, if I may...I don't mean to offend anyone...I realize Berkeley is an amazing school, but honestly UCLA is more of an attention grabber than Berkeley is in this part of the country. Some of this is due to Berks "hippy, lazy, stoner" image and other parts are due to the balance in which UCLA provides both a great academic and social atmosphere. I'm sure much of the "name recognition" has to do with the quality of UCLA's athletics, but from someone who has lived accross the country their whole lives I can tell you that Berkeley doesn't produce the "wow" factor you speak of. Neither does UCLA for that matter, however it tends to be more recognized...</p>
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If the world knows that the US government is transforming Berkeley to become its foremost University -- whcih we usually call as NATIONAL University -- top students would have a hard time turning it down.
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<p>Again, please read this and digest it: IT WON'T HAPPEN.</p>
<p>The US is a federal country that's very much happy keeping things that way. Nationalization of a university would never fly.</p>
<p>Also, why make Berkeley into such an institution when Harvard clearly has the edge financially and esoterically?</p>
<p>UCLAir is mad because the general public think his alma mater school is not as prestigious and as famous as Berkeley. In the process, he lost his focused and now into throwing words out of nothing. LoL.........</p>
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It was just an idea I thought to make Berkeley a more competitive ugrad school which I think it rightly deserves.
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<p>This argument is strange. Why does Cal "deserve" it more than Michigan or UVA or Duke or Stanford? </p>
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And please stop the UCLA thing. The people -- in general -- don't think it's that prestigious like Berkeley. You're protecting it because you are an alumnus.
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<p>OK, well I am a student at USC (UCLA's arch-rival in case you don't know) and I tend to agree with UCLAri's position.</p>
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But vicissitudes, if Berkeley becomes super, super selective, it would mostlikely become a top 2/3/4/5 school for undergrad. If the people in California would then be aware that Berkeley is going to compete the best in the nation, they would also be prepared for the consequences and I think the Californains would eventually accept that.
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<p>Yes okay...but like I said, Californians care more about getting their kids into Berkeley more than whether Berkeley has a top 5 undergrad program instead of a top 15. It's much better to say "I attend a top 15 undergrad program" instead of "there is a top 5 undergrad program in my state."</p>
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The idea is this -- make one university in the US (or california) that would be considered -- the NATIONAL university, for the best and the brightest (creme of the crop). It would still give a little preference to top Cali residents but should also open more of its doors to top students from other States and countries.
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<p>So what you want is one university in the US for the best and brightest, that is much more selective than the current Berkeley, and open its doors to top students from other states and countries. I'm sorry to break it to you, but such university already exists. It's called Harvard University. Think about it: there is a "National University" for many major countries right? The top one that is the most famous. Todai in Japan, Beijing University in China, Oxford and Cambridge in UK, and so on. For US it is unquestionably Harvard. The only difference is that Harvard isn't public. But that detail is really irrelevant. After all, there's no rule saying the best university in a nation has to be public.</p>
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And again, you're ignoring what I'm saying: Americans WON'T GO FOR A NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. Please understand this. I'm begging of you. It won't work.
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<p>There's a saying which goes: if there's a will there's a way.</p>
<p>If the US government will make one, it can make one. It can turn the people's perception because it would then become a well funded school with far more resources than most of the top privates.</p>
<p>No offense, but berk will never be a top 2/3/4/5 university. If berk tries to become one then the current 1-5 will make sure they dont. You think HYPS want another <em>competitor</em>? Hell no, and they have the $/leverage to ensure they don't get one. I also agree with what Vici says in that nobody gives a **** how great berk is, unless their kid can get in...</p>
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If the government has the money to finance the golf war, iraq, etc... it surely would have the money for a national university.
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<p>And what of the incredibly troublesome issues of the federal government overstepping its boundaries? And why Berkeley? Why not any other university? </p>
<p>I say that even if you do institute this plan (despite its impossibility in the American system), you let universities bid for the status.</p>
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After all, there's no rule saying the best university in a nation has to be public.
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<p>Heck, if anything, the fact that Harvard is largely unencumbered by the layers upon layers of bureaucracy that top publics have to maneuver through is probably one of the best arguments for the privates.</p>
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No offense, but berk will never be a top 2/3/4/5 university. If berk tries to become one then the current 1-5 will make sure they dont.
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<p>First of all, I don't agree that Berkeley will never be a top 5 university. Heck, it was ranked #5 in the first issue of US News, and if you take Peer Assessment alone, I believe it's ranked #6. On the graduate level, it is definitely a top 5 university and could even be argued to be #1. That's the frustration that some posters and I have with Berkeley. It has potential to be a top 5 university. The star faculty is there, the prestige is there, the funding is there, top research is conducted there, etc. Yet it seems like the administration just isn't too interested in doing what it takes to make Berkeley's undergrad a top 5 program, for various reasons. Some of which are pretty legit, some are not.</p>
<p>And if the government decides to make a "national" university, I see very good reasons for making Berkeley the "national" university, if for nothing else than that it's the top public university in the country. Hey, if you're going to make a public university be the best university in the country, might as well start with the best public university in the nation. But I agree with you that there isn't even a need for a "national" university because I believe Harvard already fills that role quite well.</p>
<p>I dont think berk can ever be a top 5 university because it doesn't have the prestige. If you don't mind me asking, where are you from? The perception of Berk from where I've lived is much diff from the one everyone in California has.</p>
<p>Can you imagine the uproar that would happen not just within the ivy league but also with other state schools of the US govt decided to "invest more money in berk to rival Harvard"? It wouldn't be allowed...at all..</p>
<p>Why should Michigan taxpayers invest in Berkeley? They have UMich! You're forgetting that Americans are quite fond of their states and the universities in them. Privates do well because they generally disavow themselves of any state relations, instead becoming more like independent national entities.</p>
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I dont think berk can ever be a top 5 university because it doesn't have the prestige. If you don't mind me asking, where are you from? The perception of Berk from where I've lived is much diff from the one everyone in California has.
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<p>Well, to be fair, Cal does quite well in grad school battles. It certainly rivals Harvard for top grad students.</p>
<p>I realize that Berk is the top public, I'm not debating this in any sense, however people with rival publics (mich, virginia) can argue that their school should be the national university. I don't see how it would ever become the national university just because you'd have so much **** with the people + congress from diff states. </p>
<p>UCLAri, I realize that berkeley has great graduate programs, as a student of history I would LOVE to study history at the graduate level at berkeley, however when I say prestige I guess I'm saying name recognition, or how the general public views the school...and If you ask 100 Americans to rank Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, Columbia, Brown, Berkeley...I think you're gonna find Berkeley comes in last, despite it's great graduate programs.</p>