<p>eiffelguy, I agree with you. You are supporting my point. If I were to move to France, I would absolutely learn French and not expect them to adapt to me.</p>
<p>I think someone made a good point when they mentioned that by the 3rd generation of living in America immigrants usually rely on English as their dominant language. Is it realistic to expect all adult immigrants to learn English fully (often poorer group and live amongst other immigrants)? I don't think so. But as my mom (an interpreter in a city with a large influx of Mexican immigrants) has noted, the kids learn Spanish pretty well and end up being the interpreter for their parents. It seems like a problem that will (sort of) take care of itself as time wears on... Each generation experiences more assimilation.</p>
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<p>3rd generation? People that move to America as kids end up using English as their "dominant language." With no accent.</p>
<p>Exactly (myself as an example).</p>
<p>So you are saying that nonassimilation is right???</p>
<p>I was agreeing with Xanatos; I've lost my accent and I'm an immigrant because I got here as a kid.</p>
<p>I don't live in southern France (Angers is in the northwest) but I can tell you that french slang has many arabic influences (ex. slang for doctor is toubib, which is arabic). </p>
<p>I speak mexican Spanish so I can confirm that it is entirely different from spanish Spanish and chilean Spanish and cuban Spanish and just about any other kind of Spanish. The accent, the vocabulary. It's like comparing irish and american English, really.</p>
<p>::The assimilation works both ways. An American living in a foreign country should learn their host country's language as well.::</p>
<p>I agree comletely, which is why I learned Spanish and French. It hasn't kept me from speaking English at home, though.</p>
<p>I would not call Castillan Spanish "entirely" different from Mexican Spanish. I can understand both my Spaniard Spanish teacher and my Mexican classmates equally well. There are some word differences, and some pronunciation difference, but I would not consider it as different as Irish and American English. Maybe it's simply because I've had equal exposure to both? </p>
<p>As far as assimilation, I don't know where some of you are from or what your experiences are. I will ask you this:
a) Have you ever been in an ESL class? Do you have any idea what goes on?<br>
My guess is probably not. These kids come to school. They try to assimilate. However, in Southern California, it's kind of hard to adopt a culture when the majority of your teachers are incompetent in the subject they are trying to teach, and that you are treated like you're a complete imbecile where ever you go.
b) Have you ever been submerged in an environment for an extended period of time where you do not speak the language, and there is no one to talk to?
Groups of foreign people naturally unite because they are uncomfortable talking in a language that is foreign to them, in front of people that they are afraid will criticize them. It's one thing sitting in a classroom trying to learn Spanish with a whole bunch of gringos, everyone's in the same boat. It's a whole different monster when you're ashamed to slaughter a foreign language in front of a native speaker.</p>
<p>It's pretty gross the way every single immigrant in this country is accused of not trying to assimilate. This is coming from a 100% white, American born citizen. My best friend was born in Mexico City, is completely brilliant and still battles the prejudices of having a Mexican last name every time she leaves her house- even though she speaks English better than 99% of the American populace. It is also a result of me being emerged in an environment where I was the odd-ball out, my Spanish Lit class, where I was one non-native speaker in a class that is 100% Latin-American. I've heard the most awful stories of how these kids are "prepared" for life through our school system, chastized by their teachers and peers, and are basically prepared for a life of subservience, being told to "Go home" or people saying "I don't speak Mexican, sorry." </p>
<p>There. I'm glad that's out, because you've hit a major sore note with me. And two years ago, I would have stood up next to you and joined you in your rhetoric. And while I'm all for being able to live and thrive and interact in an adopted homeland, many people preach about the ease of a situation which they themselves have never been put in, and can't grasp the odds which people must overcome. </p>
<p>Back to the original topic- I agree with whoever made the point of not only picking a language on purely pragmatic reasons. For the last two years I have led myself to belief I would begin to pick up Mandarin at Georgetown next year. But then I started to realize that I didn't want to quit taking a language when I was just getting good at it- when I started to have to think about how to spell English, when I started to talk to myself and other (non-Spanish speakers) in Spanish on accident..When I was able to enjoy the literature and get a completely different view of America, I realized that, while Chinese has a lot of prestige over Spanish, I'd much rather be able to speak one language AMAZINGLY well than Chinese and Spanish semi-well. Plus, the idea of obtaining proficiency (a requirement to graduate at GU) in four years was a teeny bit daunting.</p>
<p>Great post, Manderz. </p>
<p>When I said it was like comparing american and irish English, I really did mean that people have trouble understanding Spanish from other countries. I sometimes have a hard time understanding people from Argentina, Uruguay or Spain. Once you get into the flow of things it's ok, but there is a moment when you go, 'hey, are they speaking Spanish?'</p>
<p>Manderz, I have been frustrated because I have taught ESL classes, and I found that, for the most part, not that many in the classes were motivated to really learn the language (and as a result - did not). Why? Because they settled in communities in which they had practically no need of the English language. So, what was the point? </p>
<p>As for myself, my parents moved to Europe in my early high school days, and I know - believe me - how difficult it can be to learn a language. I studied Italian day in and day out, and it paid off. On the other hand, I also saw many Anglo-American communities who went to places like Italy, France, Spain, etc. purely for the atmosphere and with no desire to actually live among the people. This - to me - is absolute stupidity. You'd do better to try and recreate Portugal in Arizona, or California in Guatemala, than go to those places and pretend you never left your own country.</p>
<p>BCgoUSC you are just plain ignorant. First of all, I explicitly stated that my comments about Americans abroad was NOT meant to be an excuse for immigrants not learning English. Second, when Latino immigrants settle in Latino communities (or any other immigrant settles in an ethnic community), much of the time learning English isn't necessary. I stand by that statement. Living in another country and learning another language is HARD. When people don't NEED to do it, many of them won't. I'm not implying that it's right, but that's just the way it is. Obviously what people SHOULD do and what actually happens are rarely the same thing. You need to get your head out of your backside and instead of spouting your bigoted garbage look at the world in terms of more than your idealistic, naive preconceptions. </p>
<p>Xanatos (and others) - You misinterpret what I said. Studies show that by the 3rd generation most people use English as the dominant or only language at home. I'm sure that many 1st generation kids, although completely fluent in English, speak their native language at home. By the time they have kids they may or may not speak English at home, depending on their spouse, level of assimilation, etc. But by the time their kids have kids, most of the time English will be their dominant language, if not the ONLY language they speak.
And BTW, learning another language as a kid is infinitely easier than learning it as an adult, and that obviously has bearing on things.</p>
<p>Don't be afraid of immigrants. They aren't going to take over our precious country, nor will English is going to be displaced by Spanish or any other language. We have a ridiculously huge immigrant population in this country, and it is absolutely unrealistic to expect them all to just eschew their native culture and instantly (or ever really) become "American" as soon as they step off the plane (and it is, of course, worth noting that American culture is in many respects an amalgam of other cultures). Consequently, there is clearly going to be a pronounced foreign presence, both linguistically and culturally. HOWEVER, as time goes on and future generations grow up immersed in American culture, the process of assimilation is natural. </p>
<p>Stop the hating! ;-)</p>
<p>I believe a forginer should learn the langauge of the country they're living in. Yes, it's hard to learn another language, but life isn't supposed to be easy. Isolating yourself from the society of that particular country doesn't serve anyone well.</p>
<p>I agree that foreigners should attempt to learn the language of the country they're living in, with a few exceptions. Someone who's an expatriat in a country for a relatively short time (maybe for only one year), and who has no knack for learning foreign languages, might not want to go to great extremes to really learn the language. If such a person were to just learn some basic phrases in the language, that wouldn't be too unreasonable.</p>
<p>I too am an immigrant and came to the U.S. at the age of 9, speaking next to no English. I was immersed into an English-speaking school where, it seemed, no one knew my native language. I was put into the regular classroom, but got a bit of extra help in the afternoons and went to a special ed. reading class. Within about a year, I was fluent in English.</p>
<p>"I believe a forginer should learn the langauge of the country they're living in. Yes, it's hard to learn another language, but life isn't supposed to be easy. Isolating yourself from the society of that particular country doesn't serve anyone well."</p>
<p>I agree with you. Foreigners SHOULD learn the country's language. However, there are so many other things that all of us SHOULD do, and many of them never get done. You have to remember that MANY immigrants from Latin America coming here don't have the resources or the time to go out there and practice their English, take classes, etc- they are too busy trying to stay alive and pay for food and rent. So while theoretically, an immigrant SHOULD learn the host country tongue, circumstances are often much more complicated than that. Some of the attitudes in these posts feel to me like the ignorant, unaccepting, self-absorbed American steriotype has some basis in truth.</p>
<p>ctrain: I feel sad that you resort to bigoted name calling because you can not support your points. The facts remain, when someone moves to the United States, they need to assimilate and that is just not happening in some places. I understand the reality, but if this stays the case, then we need to SHUT DOWN THE BORDERS. What is the point of letting people in who won't learn the culture, are a drain on the economy, and do not contribute anything. Don't misunderstand me, I am for the "melting pot" but only when it works both ways.</p>
<p>BCgoUSC - Don't get me wrong. I definitely believe in assimilation. I think people who come here should be able to be productive members of society, and I think that it's absolutely repulsive when people self-segregate along ethnic lines and simply come here to exploit this country's prosperity. I even agree that our border policy is far too lax. However, I also believe in being realistic. It's silly to try to strip people of their culture as soon as they enter the country, or to catigate them for not being "American" enough, or to presume that you can arbitrarily dictate who has adequately assimilated and who hasn't. If the first generation doesn't assimilate for whatever reason, then successive ones inevitably will.</p>
<p>Why drain our resources on those who (legally or illegally) come here to benefit on American prosperity without assimilating into American culture (while not losing their own) when there are millions who are willing to work the a$$es off to become Americanized for lack of a better word?</p>
<p>ASIDE from the fact that a huge part of our modern is the result of immigrants not letting their cultural identities be subsumed into what the euro-centric majority considers to be "American," and that US law expressly forbids discrimination based on culture (even against not-citizens undergoing the immigration process), how would you possibly measure something as nebulous as "willingness to assimilate?" Would you give them a test? Most natural-born Americans don't agree on what American culture should be, how would you possibly decide what aspects of American culture immigrants should adopt? The notion is just too implausible to even consider.</p>
<p>Peter Jennings hosted a television series on the United States (in the 20th century). One of the persons interviewed was a Polish immigrant who came to the United States as a boy. He said that whenever possible, he would visit the New York Public Library and read books that conveyed the American ideals. He wanted to be fully "American" in the sense of immersing himself in the diversity of culture and beliefs in the United States. According to him, he spend many hours in the library working assiduously on "being American." </p>
<p>What has unified the U.S. in the past, and hopefully in the future, is a common belief that being American doesn't necessarily mean being a member of a certain ethnic group or religion or intellectual belief, but embracing and possessing American ideals. We may not necessarily see these ideals being expressed, but the immigrant experience as always been in pursuit of this; in pursuit of the American dream, whether or not if this dream is still available to everyone.</p>
<p>The poet Emma Lazarus wrote the "The New Colossus" characterizes what the immigrants of the past may have seen in the United States.</p>
<p>Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame </p>
<p>Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. </p>
<p>"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. </p>
<p>Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"</p>