Best Honor Programs at Public Universities (Updated)

College Search & Selection
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<p>@mikemac – But isn’t Harvard supposedly the ultimate elite? People mention Harvard, but then when you compare, say, the honors program at UNC Chapel Hill, they say, “Well, that’s an elite, too, so it doesn’t count.” But obviously Chapel Hill and Harvard are not in the same league – Chapel Hill’s average SAT scores are more in line with Shreyers’.</p>

<p>Maybe if you’re talking Harvard, you can make a case for choosing the Ivy over the public / honors college. But even then, it’s hard to justify going into major debt vs. taking a free ride – unless your family’s ECF is low enough to qualify for <em>Harvard’s</em> free ride.</p>

<p>If Harvard’s offering $0 FinAid, then I still think it would be really hard to justify going that route. </p>

<p>And I say that as someone who went to the Div School (and took some courses in the Yard) and married a guy who got his PhD in the Yard (GSAS). Harvard’s not the be-all and end-all.</p>

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Honestly I don’t. And I’m not saying honors colleges are bad, I’d say quite the opposite! They provide meaningful benefits including: meeting other top students, some smaller classes with profs that really want to teach them, special advising, early enrollment. Don’t scoff at the latter; as Schreyer says in their brochure “Any Scholar will tell you that this is one of the biggest benefits of being in the Schreyer Honors College.”</p>

<p>What I do object to, though, is people that try to pass off honors colleges as being ‘just like’ attending an elite.

I agree 100%. Which is why in my 1st post I wrote “I would be skeptical of attending a college for its honors program in place of a more highly regarded U if finances are not an issue.”</p>

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<p>How is one “in the running” for UNC-CH’s honor’s program? You don’t apply; applicants are selected. Those who aren’t accepted as incoming freshman may reapply their freshman year.</p>

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<p>^ Yes, I know all that, and that’s what I meant – just using shorthand, as I was in my usual hurry.</p>

<p>I happen to think he has a good shot at getting into the Chapel Hill honors college–his stats are good, his essays were excellent, his home-school program was / is SUPER-rigorous (how many high school kids do you know who are reading the Aeneid in Latin and the Anabasis of Xenophon in Greek?), he just got a 790 on his Math II Subject SAT, and he is taking the Latin SAT this Saturday. (He got just three wrong on the practice test.)</p>

<p>I know a lot of UNC Chapel Hill folks; I’m in-state, and I think I know what I’m talking about. If I’m proved wrong, I’ll be sure to eat humble pie. :)</p>

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<p>Oops, I meant “Chapel Hill honors <em>program.</em>” Mea culpa! ;-)</p>

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<p>*By the time you’re in your upper division courses, the under-achievers have largely been weeded out…especially for engineering, math, and other hard science courses. So, a bunch of honors courses aren’t really needed at that point. It’s not really true to suggest that at this point you’re getting a dumbed down experience.</p>

<p>Your reply
People always say this…</p>

<p>But think about what it means. Go to any reasonably solid college and look at the retention rate. At Penn State, home of Schreyers Honors College, the 2-year retention rate is 88%. The numbers are going to be similar at most good publics.</p>

<p>So for the reply above to be credible 88% of the kids admitted to Penn State must have been elite-quality students, and so on for the students admitted to other publics. Once the slackers are gone after two years the instruction can jump to the level provided at elite colleges. I find that hard to swallow. *</p>

<p>LOL…trying to use statistics where they don’t apply. Good try. The retention rate has little-to-no application to what I wrote.</p>

<p>Just because the harder majors have weeded out students does NOT mean that they were weeded out of the school :rolleyes: :rolleyes: MOST have just changed their majors to something easier AT THE SAME SCHOOL. My kids are math and Chem engineering majors. Their classmates that couldn’t “cut it” their frosh/soph years didn’t leave the school. They changed majors! Same with the many kids who start out as pre-med. They hit Orgo classes and oops, “I don’t think I’m going to be a doctor anymore.”</p>

<p>and…I find it interesting that you think that for a school to provide an academically challenging atmosphere, all the classmates have to be egg-heads with tippy top ACT/SAT scores. That is sooooo not true. If you think that you can’t learn something from a classmate that might have <em>only</em> had an ACT 28 (91st percentile) or that you’ll be academically hurt in someway by having such kids in your classes, then you’re very, very wrong.</p>

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I am sorry you are mis-informed about basic definitions used in with regards to higher education. Here is how the U.S. Department of Education National Center for Educational Statistics defines “retention”

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<p>This definition of “retention” is used by the Common Data Set methodology, and is what colleges intend to convey when they report the number. Here is what the Common Data Set asks for the current year

When</a> a college offers a 2-year retention rate, like Penn State does, they are referring to students who stay enrolled at the school after two years.</p>

<p>You can use your own private definition, but it contributes nothing to the discussion.</p>

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<p>“If you think that you can’t learn something from a classmate that might have <em>only</em> had an ACT 28 (91st percentile) or that you’ll be academically hurt in someway by having such kids in your classes, then you’re very, very wrong.”</p>

<p>Amen, preach it, sister. And for that matter, mikemac, ever hear of Harvard recruited athletes? DH had a few in his Sophomore History Tutorial at Harvard. Very nice kids but needed a ton of coaching. (Their classmates helpfully gave them attention and advice…)</p>

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<p>I know exactly what retention rates mean. :rolleyes: But you misapplied it to what I was talking about.</p>

<p>I’m talking about engineering and hard science courses. Just because kids were weeded out, does not mean that they were weeded out of the school. </p>

<p>So, when you’re in those engineering and hard science upper division courses, your classmates aren’t just the average kids that you were talking about. My point was about why honors classes aren’t needed at that the 300/400 level. At that point, those who have remained in the major (really any major at that point) are typically strong in that area.</p>

<p>And, college retention rate of the university doesn’t apply to my point.</p>

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<p>How many students have been accepted, out of how many applicants? How does this rate compare to the rate at other honors colleges?</p>

<p>Absent objective evidence to the contrary, I’d have to assume that the best public honors colleges tend to be located at the best public universities. Cost and fit aside, your favorite magazine ranking of universities is probably a fairly good indicator of how the honors colleges stack up. Anybody think differently?</p>

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Ok, I think I get it. This thread started by talking about honors colleges in general. Any major. You seem to be restricting your discussion to engineering/science kids and the rigor of their upper-division classes at schools with honors colleges. </p>

<p>Fair enough. But that says nothing about the kid majoring in liberal-arts and going to an honors college expecting to get the same experience as provided by an elite college.</p>

<p>And BTW you’re still wrong about what “retention” means. Those are students that are no longer enrolled in the university. The number that have switched out of their engineering/science major is measured by something else.</p>

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<p>It’s the high stats kids in lower division classes that can benefit from honors classes. Instead of taking Frosh Comp with everyone at a public U, an honors version can be more tailored to higher stats kids. Same with Creative Writing, American History, Philosophy, General Bio, General Chem, etc. </p>

<p>Lower Division Honors Courses often fulfill General Ed/Core Curriculum req’ts, but in a classroom where all the students are in that 90th+ percentile. </p>

<p>Also, honors courses are often non-traditional subjects that still fulfill Gen Ed req’ts. Here’s 2 examples from my sons’ honors college that fulfill Gen Ed req’ts but are non-traditional classes…</p>

<p>FRESHMAN SEMINAR: Judicial Procedure (H, HU) (3 Credit Hours)
Course content includes legal reasoning, court structures, trial procedures, the jury and jury trials, legal education, the structure of the legal profession, criminal procedure and criminal punishment, including the capital punishment question. NOTE: Course open to UHP FRESHMEN ONLY.</p>

<p>HONORS CLASSICS AND WESTERN CULTURE I
(H, HU) (3 Credit Hours)
UH 201
This course introduces students to the western literary canon from the ancient to the medieval period. Writers to be studied include Homer, Sophocles, Virgil, and Dante. </p>

<p>FRESHMAN SEMINAR: International War Crimes
(H, HU) (3 Credit Hours)
Course covers international war crime trials from WW-I through recent U.S Supreme Court decisions after 9/11 to include emphasis on the Nuremberg Trials and the Tokyo trials after WW-II, Vietnam, the Balkan Cases and the international terrorism issue as well as the formation of the International Criminal Court in l998. NOTE: Course open to UHP FRESHMEN ONLY. </p>

<p>HONORS FINE ARTS (FA) (3 Credit Hours)
Arts and Parody
Arts and Parody will explore both parodies and the works parodied, using examples from literature, music, the visual arts, and architecture in an attempt to define parody as a genre.</p>

<p>HONORS FINE ARTS (FA) (3 Credit Hours)
Behind the British Mask
We will examine the role British theatre has played in British culture and in American society. Because London is the theatre capital of the world, we will explore the political and cultural elements in modern British drama, emphasizing its artistic and creative components. Students will discuss plays, view clips, write critical analyses (or an original work), and attend a University of Alabama play. Some of the plays we’ll read include Copenhagen, Billy Elliot, Take Me Out, Frozen, and two plays from the 2007 London theater season.</p>

<p>And, I’m not saying that schools do not offer any upper division honors courses. some do. My kids’ school offers a good number. But, the majority are 100/200 level courses. </p>

<p>Here’s a few examples…</p>

<p>HONORS SPECIAL TOPICS SEMINAR (W) (3 Credit Hours)
Social Entrepreneurship
UH 300
What is it that distinguishes the work of social entrepreneurs? Learn about remarkable people affecting the lives of the underserved through their ability to foster social change. Class readings and discussion will also help you develop a deeper understanding of global issues and current events and perhaps discover the seeds of social entrepreneurship within yourself. This course is not open to freshmen.</p>

<p>HONORS SPECIAL TOPICS SEMINAR (W) (3 Credit Hours)
Finding Financial Freedom
UH 300
This three semester hour course is designed to provide the tools and techniques necessary for the development of a successful personal financial plan over one’s life span. Topics are fully explained and fundamentals thoroughly examined commencing with money management and credit use, progressing to investments, insurance, and retirement planning, and culminating in estate planning and wealth accumulation. This course carries a writing designation.</p>

<p>HONORS SPECIAL TOPICS SEMINAR (W) (3 Credit Hours)
Honors Legal Writing</p>

<p>Unraveling legalese: Introduction to the Principles of Legal Writing. Discover the secrets shared by legal giants Denny Crane, Supreme Court Chief Justice Roberts, Perry Mason, and Justice Hugo Black. Enhanced by film clips and current events, this seminar writing class will focus on the reasoning and writing skills necessary to communicate in the legal arena. Not for the faint hearted.</p>

<p>HONORS SPECIAL TOPICS SEMINAR (W) (3 Credit Hours)
First Person</p>

<p>This course is designed to teach students to express their opinions persuasively through the art of first-person writing. They will read and critique current political, music, art and movie commentary by syndicated columnists and featured writers from newspaper, magazine, Web and National Public Radio. A wide variety of writing assignments include local political, event and band reviews along with first person essay writing. In addition, students will write, edit and produce a 3-minute video for the NPR project, ―This I Believe.</p>

<p>HONORS SPECIAL TOPICS SEMINAR (W) (3 Credit Hours)
Behind the Iron Curtain: Ordinary Life during the Rise and Fall of East Germany
UH 300
This course examines the lives of people in East Germany during the 40 years of its existence—their enthusiasm and initial commitment to build a new government structure after WWII and the gradual disintegration of the socialist system, when corruption and scarcity manifested themselves in the lives of the ruling working class.
Three movies will enhance students’ understanding of changes taking place in the Eastern part of Germany. Currently considered for viewing and discussion are The Good German (2006), The Lives of Others (2006), and Good-Bye, Lenin (2004).</p>

<p>HONORS SPECIAL TOPICS SEMINAR (W) (3 Credit Hours)
Women from Antiquity to Today
UH 300
This course on ―Women from Antiquity through Today‖ will focus on the life of women in ancient Greece and the origins of patriarchy, in order to trace some of the social problems women encounter today. Critical information will be leaned from the representation and perception of women in ancient laws, medical science, religion, literature, and art. Findings in the ancient world will serve as a sounding board for comparisons with modern laws, medical practices, and representations of women in literature and art (paintings, movies, etc.) that still convey some of the ancient archetypes and norms. The goal of the course is to bridge the gap between the genders by achieving two things: First, by understanding the ancient origins of male misconceptions about women, and second by proposing ways of altering the archetypes that govern them. Promoting a dialogue between the sexes is extremely useful for both male and female students who are able to gain a greater insight in the psyche of the opposite gender.</p>

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<p>*And BTW you’re still wrong about what “retention” means. Those are students that are no longer enrolled in the university. *</p>

<p>LOL…of course I know what retention rate means. Everyone knows that retention rate refers to how many students remained enrolled at the university. If a school has an 88% retention rate, then 88% returned. OMG. Who the heck doesn’t know that!!! :rolleyes: </p>

<p>I’m no longer going to attempt to clarify this to you because you don’t seem to be able to understand that a school’s retention rate has nothing to do with what I was talking about.</p>

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<p>But that says nothing about the kid majoring in liberal-arts and going to an honors college expecting to get the same experience as provided by an elite college.</p>

<p>Yes and no…</p>

<p>Once students are in their 300/400 level classes (liberal arts or whatever), there has been a “re-sorting” of kids. Those whose talents are in - say The Classics - have self-sorted themselves into that major. Some of those students may not have had 700+ Math SATs, but in The Classics they’re head and shoulders above their engineering peers. Same with the French Lit major or the Creative Writing major or what-have-you. So, when you’re in those 300/400 level courses, your classmates are typically strong in those areas…even if their overall SAT scores weren’t 2000+</p>

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<p>LadyD - I just want to warn you not let your son develop expectations of getting into the honors program at UNC-CH as it must be very competitive. I don’t know what criteria they use for selection, but we were a little surprised when my D was not made an offer. We, too are IS and they did offer her a merit scholarship. She was a tippy top student at one of the best public HSs in the state with test scores that put her in the top 25% at Harvard (where she ended up) and great extracurriculars in the arts. So, you never know. Anyway, best of luck to your son.</p>

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<p>How many freshmen does UNC-CH admit every year to its honors program?</p>

<p>And, do they try to get kids from a variety of states? All 50 states perhaps? If so, then could being “instate” hurt your chances?</p>

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<p>They invite 200 each year. They may, indeed give priority to OOS, idk. But given that Harvard takes about 10-15 kids from NC per year, I would have thought that a kid that got into H would be offered the honors program at UNC-CH. Perhaps they didn’t want to waste the offer on a kid that they assumed they wouldn’t get, who knows? Anyway, she is very happy at H, so no worries.</p>

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<p>Add Auburn. </p>

<p>My daughter is in the honors program at Auburn. It gives students priority registration, requires them to take a special honors class each year to make sure they are on track for research and graduate school opportunities and to enhance their overall academic experience. She has one honors course this semester that she loves and when she saw the lab work (Honors Chemistry I) that a roommate taking the regular level was doing verses what she was doing she was so thankful that she was in the honors program. Her work is more challenging, but far more interesting. She also has a great professor whom she hopes to do research with next year. (I do need to add that she also loves her other professors in her non-honors classes, because, as she puts it, they are very good.)</p>

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<p>Wow, cltdad–that is an amazing story. When D got into Harvard, I hope she sent Chapel Hill a letter saying, “Kiss my grits,” LOL. (Just kidding, of course.)</p>

<p>There is certainly a crapshoot aspect to college admissions, that is for sure!</p>

<p>Well, if DS does not get into Chapel Hill’s honors program OR at least get some merit aid, then we’re crossing it off the list. He has certainly applied to enough other places so that we’ll be covered, we hope. DS actually leans toward UNCA, which also has an honors program <em>and</em> a fantastic classics dep’t. (DS does not plan to major in classics, but he has come so far with Latin and Greek that it would be nuts to just drop it altogether…maybe a minor…)</p>

<p>Best wishes to your DD! She sounds like a stellar kid. :)</p>

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<p>I wonder whether UNC Chapel Hill’s honors admissions folks also look at geographical diversity within NC? We live in the proverbial Middle of Nowhere, on 18 wooded acres, surrounded by neighbors who have many more acres than we do. It doesnot get much more COUNTREEEE than this, LOL!</p>