<p>Not discounting your argument, but that is possibly the stupidest table ever presented by an institution of higher learning. The first column covers 30 years, the next three columns each cover 10 years, the second column is a subset of the first, and the last three columns all overlap their data sets. Talk about stretching your data to make a marketing point, the only thing they didn’t do was claim is was only driven by a little old lady to church on Sundays.</p>
<p>@tk21769 - “Nevertheless, in my opinion, PhD production is one of the better objective proxies we have for measuring undergraduate academic program quality.”</p>
<p>I agree, it’s <em>one</em> of them. Which is why I’d caution against placing too much emphasis on it. It’s one metric. There are others (Putnam results, for instance, are often cited by math profs).</p>
<p>@soMuch2Learn - That list is for grad schools.</p>
<p>I agree that the OP would do best in a university that has a LAC feel. High level math classes are more readily available at research universities than LACs. Since he is already so advanced in mathematics, he may be limited in later college years in the kinds of offerings available to him. </p>
<p>And let’s be honest - the OP is taking sophomore/junior college level math classes in high school. Admittance to PhD programs is not so much the school, but the student. If he continues this rigor and obvious passion for mathematics, he will be excellently prepared for a PhD wherever he goes. I think it’s a bit ridiculous to debate between the top 10 schools for PhD productivity in the nation. </p>
<p>I would recommend Rice. It’s been known to create a ‘nerdy’ LAC vibe. A lot of kids that like Rice also like Tufts and WashU. (I’m one of them!)
University of Chicago also comes to mind, they are more theoretical-based in mathematics.
CalTech too, basically a scientist/mathematician training school. I am not sure about what their academic “breadth” is like,if that is the kind of environment you are seeking.
Brandeis has a LAC-like feel in a research uni.</p>
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<p>The problem with the Putnam results is that the number of winning individuals and teams is so small. The winners circle is dominated by a very small number of schools (MIT, Harvard … Caltech … Stanford, Princeton). So unless you have the chops to get into one of these super selective schools, it does not help you much in differentiating the rest of the pack. If you do have the chops … well, by all means, shoot for one of these schools.</p>
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<p>As is the case in many threads, the OP asks for one thing (“best liberal arts colleges for mathematics”) and gets back opinions why he should be asking for something else. Well, o.k. Sometimes that is the appropriate response. I don’t disagree that Rice or Chicago might be good choices. I also agree that course selection might be an issue at some LACs.</p>
<p>However, before you give up on LACs, talk to professors and advanced students at schools that interest you. See if they think course selection has been a serious obstacle. You might even try emailing grad students at a school like Chicago who attended small schools (Reed, Bard, Barnard, Haverford). Ask them (in a short and sweet message) if course selection was a handicap that was not outweighed by other factors. </p>
<p>@Marvin100 yes I know. My point was that some of these universities allow students from nearby LACs to cross register. Therefore, some of those LACs might be considered by the OP as the courses available to them aren’t just limited to the LAC’s offerings, but have the undergraduate and graduate offerings of the university.</p>
<p>For example, MIT allows cross registration for students from Wells, MassArt, and SMFA. I can’t find any cross registration info for Princeton, and Harvard appears to only have cross registration with other universities, although years ago they did with Radcliff. UC Berkley allows Mills and St Mary’s students to cross register, etc. Maybe others have already looked into this info and would be willing to share their findings. </p>
<p>@tk21769 I very much like the idea of reaching out to a few professors at these LACs. In terms of etiquette, would it be appropriate to simply email a professor who teaches/researches in a field I find intriguing, briefly detail my experience and passion for mathematics and interest in the institution, and ask if course selection would be an obstacle? </p>
<p>Just checking to see if this would be suitable as I certainly do not want to come off as rude or haughty. </p>
<p>keep it short and sweet. professors are very busy people. very very briefly describe your passion for math and then you can ask your questions.</p>
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I think course selection would be an issue at most LACs. </p>
<p>LACs are great, but sometimes I will unequivocally recommend a university over a LAC. A prospective classics major with several years of Greek and/or Latin is one such case. This is another. The OP is already taking advanced math classes at Columbia – (s)he belongs in a rigorous math program with graduate classes available. </p>
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Such arrangements often work far better on paper than in reality. Aside from the annoyance of academic calendars that often don’t align, the time and effort required to get from one campus to another can be considerable even for colleges located fairly close together. Between work and other classes, most students don’t have large blocks of time open during the day. Having a car (and being allowed to bring one) would help with transportation. </p>
<p>there is a director of undergraduate studies at every department, whose task is to deal with curricular issues and the matters that you raise. Often the DUS’ title is listed next to the professor’s name in the faculty directory of each department. No one except perhaps a long-serving chair is going to know more about the dept’s courses than the DUS. This will save you from contacting just any professor.</p>
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<p>For this particular OP, course selection in math would be an issue at most LACs.</p>
<p>The OP can certainly check course offerings at various LACs, but should not be surprised to find that many of them have insufficient advanced math courses for him/her, given that s/he will have already taken several college junior level math courses by the time s/he graduates from high school. A LAC that may be perfectly suitable for a math major who enters after having just completed AP calculus or precalculus may have very little to offer this particular OP.</p>
<p>I suspect that almost all PhD students in top math departments had taken advanced math courses as HS students. That is, I doubt that these programs get many late bloomers. Yet in fact, some of them did attend small colleges. Based on my survey of grad student profiles on the Chicago & Cornell sites, represented undergraduate colleges include Reed, Haverford, Barnard, Bard, Wellesley, Pomona, Lewis & Clark, and Carleton. </p>
<p>So again, I suggest the OP reach out to a few of these students. You may indeed find that a few of them, having hit the big time, now say, “Gee, I really wish I’d attended a larger college.” Or not. </p>
<p>If this issue troubles the OP, though, (s)he could cut the knot and seek out the best of both worlds (small-ish school/classes + relatively extensive course offerings). Check out Columbia, Chicago, Rice, Caltech …</p>
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<p>If I were you, I’d email grad students directly. Yeah, it’s a little forward. You need to respect their privacy and time. However, some of them do post their email addresses on a public site. Some of them may ignore your message. Others may be flattered you asked and be happy to help.</p>
<p>Please share any findings.</p>
<p>Your best bet would likely be HarveyMudd - LAC-like with very advanced math.
UChicago and Rice would be other schools that you could be interested in.
I agree that you need a college where you can readily take graduate-level math classes.</p>
<p>@tk21769 Thank you so much for the advice. I reached out to a grad student at Chicago with an LAC background and, to my utmost surprise, received a prompt and extremely helpful response. Not only that, but he’s agreed to continue the discussion going further into my particular mathematical ambitions and interests- couldn’t have asked for a better outcome. </p>
<p>Awesome. Great to hear!</p>
<p>Great to hear indeed :)</p>
<p>Wonderful. We’d love to hear back from you as you continue to explore options. </p>
<p>If you have a moderate or higher interest in non-math subjects and becoming more rounded, then look at Mudd, Williams, Reed, but it’s not like research unis can’t accommodate your other interests. LACs, for the most part, are a gamble for an advanced math student. Course selection in your likely (grad) math specialty, and whether the school has a prof or two in that area, is a huge factor.</p>
<p>I surveyed CVs posted for PhD students at 4 universities: Caltech, Chicago, Cornell, and Michigan.
These 4 all rank among the USNWR top 15 graduate school mathematics departments.
On these 4 department websites, relatively many grad students (but not all of them) post CVs.
I could not find more than a couple of CVs for several other top departments.</p>
<p>By institutional type, by my count, these are the number of baccalaureate institutions represented 1 or more times:</p>
<p>32 international institutions (at least 4 of them by multiple students)
17 state universities (1 of them by multiple students)
15 private universities (at least 6 of them by multiple students)
10 LACs (at least 6 of them by multiple students)</p>
<p>Colleges represented more than twice:<br>
Chinese University of Hong Kong (5x), Princeton (4x), UChicago (4x).</p>
<p>LACs represented:
Bard
Barnard
Carleton
Haverford
Lewis & Clark
Morehouse
Pomona
Reed
Swarthmore
Wellesley</p>
<p>If LACs are a gamble, it appears that a fair number of very talented math students have taken that gamble, and won.
Now, “very talented” does not necessarily mean equally well-prepared as college freshmen. For all I know, the best-prepared HS math students are all gravitating to universities, and the LACsters are just doing a good job at catch-up.</p>