Wanted to get opinions on this - a couple of family friends are successful doctors/surgeons. They both attended in-state public schools for undergrad and in-state for medical school. Both have given me and my daughter the advice to get the least expensive undergraduate education possible at a school where she will excel both overall and in the core requirements to qualify for medical school. At the same time, I have a friend who says “it would be a shame if she couldn’t go to her dream school (Vanderbilt)” for $70k per year. I tend to agree with the doctors but would love any other opinions from this forum. Thanks!
And I know Vanderbilt is a total stretch - just using it as an example of a pricey and prestigious option
whats ur stats and home state for ur duaghter
Kentucky. 4.0 gpa and 33 ACT composite. All honors and AP classes. 4 years of a sport, strong volunteering, part-time job and several honor societies. Thanks.
Is that friend volunteering to pony up the 70k each year for the dream school?
Look, if you have the 70k each year for four years, and some spare change left over to help pay for med school (assuming she’s still interested and does get accepted), there is nothing wrong with choosing to spend your money that way. Go for it.
However, there are a lot of cheaper options that will work just fine. For med school admissions, GPA, MCAT score, letters of recommendation, and required job shadowing/medical volunteer work are what matter. The name of the place she’d graduate from doesn’t. If money is a huge issue, check the places on these lists to see if their merit scholarships still exist, and pop over to the financial aid forum for more ideas.
http://automaticfulltuition.yolasite.com/
http://competitivefulltuition.yolasite.com/
Just faced this same choice. Vanderbilt, in fact, was one of those choices, but we chose the low-cost (free), good quality pre-med option. I don’t know if a more prestigious school name would help her in med school admissions, but I doubt she will need that kind of help. Depending on the stock market performance over the next four years, she may be able to graduate from med school debt free. It might be “a shame” to miss out on Stanford, Vandy, etc. but IMHO your MD friends and your gut are leading you correctly.
Listen to your couple of family friends who are successful doctors/surgeons…Pretty much any US college will offer the opportunities and resources your D needs to be a competitive med school applicant. Although not of zero importance, your D’s college performance (eg GPAs, MCAT, etc) will carry far more weight than where she attends college. And as med school is very expensive and usually paid for with loans, graduating with as little college debt, if any, is very sound advice. Also college profs don’t tend to hand out As like pez candy. Getting As competing against tippy top students at a school like Vanderbilt would be a challenge for any student. Being premed is hard anywhere. D may wantt to consider schools where she has better chance to shine academically
You should consider whether this is the most useful thing to evaluate when selecting colleges.
The vast majority of pre-meds don’t wind up in medical school, even those who are “completely sure” that medicine is their calling. Last year approximately twice as many students took the MCAT as those who applied to medical school, and only 40% of applicants enrolled in medical school. In short, only 20% of MCAT takers wound up in medical school, to say nothing of all the students who drop pre-med well before the MCAT stage. I recommend selecting colleges based on the best fits for your daughter – academic, social, financial – rather than her plans with respect to medical school. Students are often introduced to new subjects of interest in college that attract them away from the standard high school career goals (lawyer, doctor, banker, IR expert, etc.).
That said, any student considering a pre-med track should keep undergraduate debt to a minimum.
I had a chat recently with a top specialist doctor who works at a very well known top hospital somewhere in the general Boston area. More than ten years after graduating medical school, he is still paying off student loans. However, he got a very good deal on medical school – less than half the price of most schools that would have been of the same top caliber, and probably about 1/4 the current cost of medical schools. If a current high school student is seriously considering a career in medicine, they need to budget for a full 8 years, with this hopefully ending with a debt that it at least tolerable.
Also, admission to medical school might depend upon several factors but the most important that are under the control of the students are GPA and MCAT scores. If a student wants to get into any medical school, they need to go to an undergraduate school where they can get a high GPA.
Finally, there are a LOT of universities in the US that have very good premed programs.
Many high school students seem to want to attend the academically most challenging university that they can get into (or at least the most famous, which is often close to the same thing), regardless of price. However, this is often not compatible with the “high GPA, low debt, hopefully money left for medical school” requirements that would help a student actually get accepted into medical school and then graduate with a tolerable total debt.
All of which is a slow way to say: Your friends who are doctors are right.
IMHO your other non-doctor friend who wants your child to go to an expensive school is wrong. You should ignore them unless that friend is willing to pay the full cost of undergrad for your child (allowing you to save your money for medical school, or graduate school noting that the majority of premed students end up doing something else).
Why would you listen to this person over 2 actual doctors?
Yes, I’m totally aligned with the doctors. Financial means aside, I just don’t think it makes good sense to spend that kind of money on an undergraduate education. We will likely be pursuing an honors college experience either at an in state university or a school that can provide equivalent cost/value to the in state options. Thanks for all of your feedback!
The advice you’ve received thus far represents what is now the consensus view on CC regarding pre-med education: Choose low cost over a shiny brand name, and focus on earning the high GPA and strong MCATs that med schools are looking for in their applicants. Med school isn’t investment banking: The prestige of undergraduate institutions is not that big a factor in admissions.
However, even though I’m no particular fan of Vanderbilt, I would note that the school has a reputation for offering very generous financial aid packages. If you are a full-pay family, this aid factor is not relevant; Vandy would indeed be a very expensive choice. If, on the other hand, your EFC is low, you might find that Vandy could be cheaper than your state flagship.
even if this family qualified for a lot of aid at Vandy, and it doesn’t sound like they would based on the mom’s claim that they’d be paying $70k per year, Vandy is not a good choice for a premed. It’s a pressure cooker environment.
The last thing any student should do if they really want to go to med school is to go to a tippy top school where all of the other premeds are stronger or as strong as you are. The fight for the A’s will be extremely difficult and getting out with a med school worthy GPA will be the issue.
A couple of years ago, a student posted here. He was a NMF with a full ride to UT Dallas. He thought it wasn’t prestigious enough, so after a year, he transferred to Vandy. His GPA at UT Dallas was a 4.0. He posted in the premed forum here that after Vandy, his GPA was now too low for med school. He blew it. And, it was all for nothing because med schools would have been fine with his UT Dallas pedigree. UT Dallas is a strong school especially in sciences.
My nephew and my son began undergrad at the same time. They had nearly identical high school stats and both had the same major in college, Chemical Engineering. They both were premed. My nephew went to Vandy full-pay and my son went to his state flagship with huge merit scholarships. Soon, my nephew did not have a med school worthy GPA. My son graduated with a 3.99 and graduated from med school in May. My brother-in-law, who was the one who insisted that his premed son go to Vandy or JHU is now shaking his head after spending over $220k and no med school, while my kid’s undergrad education cost less than $7k per year after merit.
Listen to your doctor friends. Save your money for med school, which is crazy expensive. Even if your child ends up at her state med school, there are still a lot of hidden costs. And the fourth year is just nuts with all the expenses involved with applying to and flying around the country for residency interviews.
Thanks @mom2collegekids! I’ve been lurking for a while and know that you are the Alabama expert. We visited last spring break and that’s one of her top choices. We’ve also gone to Auburn, Miami (Ohio), Kansas, and on a whirlwind tour of Texas schools. Next up, South Carolina, Oklahoma and Louisville. Really appreciate the advice on Vandy too!
I would offer one addition to the prevailing sentiment. Medical schools are categorized as either public or private institutions. For the majority of medical schools, which are public, the selectivity of undergraduate institution is given low importance in admissions, as people have stated. However, for the few medical schools that are private, it is one of the criteria that is given the highest importance. This is supported by a survey from the American Association of Medical Colleges (https://www.aamc.org/download/434596/data/usingmcatdata2016.pdf, page 3).
I went to Harvard Medical School, so I also know this from personal experience. Our medical school class was very heavily weighted towards undergraduates from selective colleges.
So, if one’s goal is to attend a private medical school, then the undergraduate institution would be a consideration. But that’s also a gamble, because you also have to do very well at that undergraduate institution. For most people, any medical school, public or private, would be fine.
“So, if one’s goal is to attend a private medical school, then the undergraduate institution would be a consideration”
As 60% of those that apply fail to start anywhere, getting one acceptance anywhere is quite the accomplishment. A premed trying to target private medical schools would probably be a losing strategy for most premeds. Also keep in mind that all US med schools are good schools and can serve as a pathway to whatever goal in medicine you’re interested in…
Agreed. It is generally a risky gamble for most people to assume that they can do well at a selective college. But there are exceptions, depending on the individual. I also agree that for most people, any medical school will serve their ultimate goal.
<<<< I would offer one addition to the prevailing sentiment. Medical schools are categorized as either public or private institutions. For the majority of medical schools, which are public, the selectivity of undergraduate institution is given low importance in admissions, as people have stated. However, for the few medical schools that are private, it is one of the criteria that is given the highest importance. This is supported by a survey from the American Association of Medical Colleges (https://www.aamc.org/download/434596/data/usingmcatdata2016.pdf, page 3).
I went to Harvard Medical School, so I also know this from personal experience. Our medical school class was very heavily weighted towards undergraduates from selective colleges.
So, if one’s goal is to attend a private medical school, then the undergraduate institution would be a consideration. But that’s also a gamble, because you also have to do very well at that undergraduate institution. For most people, any medical school, public or private, would be fine.
<<<
First of all, you were a MD/PhD student. For that, undergrad name does have more importance.
Secondly, while private med schools claim that they consider undergrad names, it’s not as cut and dry as you’re assuming. They don’t mean that the student has to be from a top 25 or even top 50 school. They really just mean that they will be concerned if the school is some unheard of school. Virtually any flagship or similar would be fine. Public meds don’t need to have that caveat because they typically know the strength of their own state’s directionals.
Yes, your SOM was filled with many pedigreed students. SOMs are moving away from that to have more diversity…not just ethnic, but also realizing that the best doctors didn’t necessarily have the opportunity to attend an ivy for undergrad.
But really, the residency is more important anyway.
I was glad to read this thread. I just had this discussion with my D who is a senior in HS and considering medical school some day. Her dream is small LAC, but finances might not let that happen. She is under impression that going to a state school would hurt her chances to go to med school. I will show her this thread and hope she believes!
Unfortunately, we live in PA where there is not a cheap option for an in-state school. But some OOS school would be cheaper than PA and LAC.
I didn’t mean to imply that anything was absolute or “cut and dry”. Certainly, at my medical school, we did have students from a variety of undergraduate colleges, including some colleges that were relatively unheard of. This variety meant that almost all of the colleges represented in our class had a single student. Nevertheless, there were a few colleges that were represented by multiple students, which suggested that the admissions committee gave some consideration to those colleges. However, since those colleges also tended to have many high-achieving students, at least some of the bias could have been explained by the high test scores and relevant extracurricular activities of those students, which they might have achieved at any other college.