<p>normally, I’m of a fan of rankings, but not necessarily BW’s (even tho my favorite schools do well). The problem with the BW survey is that it is easily manipulated by the schools themselves. By rolling out the red carpet to recruiters – including wining and dining – the school scores higher. Cal-Haas figured that out a few years ago when they were languishing in the 15-20 rank but jumped into the top 10, just by sucking up to the recruiters’ vanity.</p>
<p>maxellis,
I have the data from the 2008 BW Teaching Survey. There were some changes from 2008 to 2009. No schools moved up in grade. 5 schools moved down.</p>
<p>2009, 2008</p>
<p>A , A+ , NYU (Stern)
A , A+ , SMU (Cox)
A , A+ , Georgetown (McDonough)
B , A , UC Berkeley (Haas)
B , A , Indiana U (Kelley)</p>
<p>Here is how the Top 25 ranked in 2009 and 2008 on Teaching Quality:</p>
<p>2009 , 2008 , </p>
<p>A+ , A+ , U Virginia (McIntire)
A+ , A+ , Notre Dame (Mendoza)
A+ , A+ , U Penn (Wharton)
A+ , A+ , MIT (Sloan)
A+ , A+ , Cornell
A+ , A+ , Emory (Goizueta)
A+ , A+ , Villanova
A+ , A+ , U Richmond (Robins)
A+ , A+ , Wake Forest (Calloway)
A+ , A+ , Wash U (Olin)
A+ , A+ , Boston College (Carroll)
A+ , A+ , Lehigh</p>
<p>A , A , BYU (Marriott)
A , A , U Texas (McCombs)
A , A , U North Carolina (Kenan)
A , A+ , NYU (Stern)
A , A , Miami U (Farmer)
A , A , Carnegie Mellon (Tepper)
A , A , USC (Marshall)
A , A+ , SMU (Cox)
A , A+ , Georgetown (McDonough)</p>
<p>B , B , U Michigan (Ross)
B , A , UC Berkeley (Haas)
B , A , Indiana U (Kelley)</p>
<p>C , C , U Illinois</p>
<p>blue,
I agree with you about the overall rankings and how they can be influenced. That is partly why I am posting comparisons based on individual data points so that readers can see how they compare on these. Readers can judge whether they feel if these criteria are useful or relevant to them.</p>
<p>hawkette, how about posting the salary data, and if you happen to have, the top choices amongst the top employers that hire BBA graduates. Seriously, I think those are FAR more important information that posting SAT scores, especially that these top schools’ admission criteria vary widely. For example, large state universities don’t weigh SATs as their small private school peers do. Some schools don’t superscore SATs, and some schools, Berkeley for one, do not even accept students that are fresh from high schools and therefore do not count their SAT scores into their admission criteria. So, to rank schools based on SATs is utterly pointless. It does not picture the general teaching standard of the school. It does not say about the quality of what the school maintains. It does not say anything about their graduates’ desirability by employers. It does not say anything about their real success after acquiring their diploma. That’s why to place Washington-Olin ahead of MIT-Sloan is a big joke for me. I bet even the least informed employer wouldn’t rate Washinton-Olin higher than MIT-Sloan. In the same manner that USC-Marshall couldn’t be superior to Berkeley-Haas despite that USC-Marshall has a higher average SAT scores than Berkeley-Haas does. </p>
<p>
Thank you; that were exactly my point to the poster who’s selling McIntire on this thread. Even though McIntire graduates are more represented in WS than Berkeley graduates are, it does not mean that McIntire grads are more favored than Berkeley grads are in WS. They’re just more represented in WS because of their school location or proximity to WS. But as to their “sought-after-ness” in WS, they couldn’t really claim that.</p>
<p>RML,</p>
<p>Several things. First, as I mentioned above, there are many ways to compare undergraduate business schools. I plan to present salary data and will do so shortly. </p>
<p>Second, I understand your concern about SAT scores and there is some merit to your comment. Unfortunately, however, it is the best data point we have about student quality and thus gets lots of attention/weight on CC and in rankings like BW and USNWR. More importantly, I know that many competitive employers use the colleges as a sort of screening process and, like it or not, standardized test scores are an integral part of the admissions process at nearly every elite school in the USA. </p>
<p>In addition to looking for top talent, employers will gravitate to places where they perceive that there is the best talent AND they have a reasonable chance of attracting them. So, you won’t see a lot of folks in the West or Midwest recruiting at U Virginia nor will you see a lot of folks from Wall Street recruiting for NY positions at USC or UC Berkeley. This geographic factor is often forgotten on CC as only a handful of colleges have truly national appeal (probably only Wharton on this list). Furthermore, alumni entrenchment can be a very sizable factor in recruitment, eg, if a boss or top recruiter attended Kelley at U Indiana, then his/her firm is quite likely to recruit there.</p>
<p>Third, I think you overrate the differences in student quality and preparedness coming out of schools like Wash U and USC vs those coming out of MIT Sloan and UC Berkeley. There’s not much difference and often the soft factors like alumni connection will trump the immaterial differences in student quality. If you know any USC grads who are in hiring positions, then you probably know what I mean as my guess is they’d be very likely to favor a USC grad in the interview process.</p>
<p>Fourth, my point above was about the attractiveness of Stanford grads on Wall Street vs U Virginia McIntire. Not UC Berkeley Haas. IMO McIntire grads would be seen every bit as strongly as those from Haas. At that level, the differences are inconsequential and the fact is that there is probably an alumni advantage for McIntire over Haas in NYC.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Most Harvard students will never be as financially successful as any of the S&P 500 CEOs
Most Princeton students will never be as financially successful as any of the S&P 500 CEOs
Most Yale students will never be as financially successful as any of the S&P 500 CEOs
…hmm all true</p>
<p>Please think before you type</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>For job opportunities in the business field, I would say only Harvard students are recruited as much as Wharton</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/investment-banking/459445-best-undergraduate-college-investment-banking-hedge-funding.html?highlight=hedge+funding[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/investment-banking/459445-best-undergraduate-college-investment-banking-hedge-funding.html?highlight=hedge+funding</a></p>
<p>It’s pretty hard to define what the best jobs in business are, but the highest paid (non-CXO jobs) are probably in the financial industry. These firms happen to recruit more students from Wharton than any other school</p>
<p>^Perhaps you should understand the context and “think before you type”. I was making a point on how ridiculous and disrespectful hmom5’s comments were. No need to get sooooo defensive. Okay?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t think so. I would argue that some schools’ fortes which often are oversubscribed due to their popularity and high employability are just as recruited as Wharton grads. For example, I don’t see any difference between Wharton’s BBA and Northwestern’s Kellogg Certificate Program. I don’t see any difference between a Sloan BBA and a Wharton BBA in terms of employability… True, there are more Wharton grads in IB and HF but that’s because there are way more Wharton graduates than there are Northwestern’s Kellogg Certificate graduates. But as to their employability, I’m confident - by looking at Kellogg’s excellent profile - that those Kellogg’s grads are just as highly employable as grads of any school or any program out there. There is no single school that can claim a monopoly in the recruitment race…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree; but I would bet that most employers don’t base their recruitment on the applicant’s SAT scores. SAT scores don’t supersede the value of a BBA especially when this is acquired with honors. </p>
<p>My point, hawkette, is that you should not have included Berkeley-Haas in your list or ranking if you wish that ranking would reflect the general intellectual capacity of the students, because, like I’ve repeatedly said, Berkeley-Haas does not look into the applicant’s SAT scores. Berkeley-Haas only look at the GPA of the prereqs of the applicants. And mind you, these are way more difficult subjects to pass let alone pass those with flying colors, which Berkeley-Haas requires from all their students. </p>
<p>Here’s a simpler way to explain this:</p>
<p>Student A got an almost perfect SAT scores of 2400, applied to Berkeley and got admitted, but after two years of doing the Haas prerequisites, did not manage get a 3.4 GPA. </p>
<p>Student B got a cumulative SAT scores of 2100, got into Berkeley, but after two years in Berkeley, he’s managed to obtain a GPA of 3.8. </p>
<p>Who do you think will Haas absorb for their BBA intake? </p>
<p>Now, if you will answer “Student B”, which we both know that he’s the guy Haas will accept eventually, then my point that SAT scores for Haas is almost useless… is true, and therefore, should not be included in your ranking. </p>
<p>There are tremendous amount of knowledge one can gain during the first two years in college, and that should not be overlooked in favor of just one half-day exam.</p>
<p>There is not a good undergrad business ranking in existence as of today. US News is awful and considered a joke by everyone because it only uses low response academia PA. Business Week is an improvement but factors in student’s scoring too much.</p>
<p>In the real world there is Penn at the top then NYU, Cal, and Michigan which are a large step ahead of UVA, USC, and UNC fwiw. I’m leaving out schools but those are examples from the top 3 tiers.</p>
<p>kville,
Not sure how you reached your conclusions, but I am highly confident that major employers don’t have anywhere near the same differentiation among schools and student quality as you imply in your post. U Penn may have the highest prestige among undergrad business schools, but they certainly don’t have a monopoly on the good students. In reality, the quality differences are quite small among the students coming from any of the schools that you mentioned. </p>
<p>The fact is that there are a lot of very, very good places and even more very, very good students/potential employees. Furthermore, businesses understand that having a broad mix of colleges represented at their companies is intelligent and probably good for business (some do it in the name of diversity, others from a desire to avoid groupthink). You’d be amazed at the kids that sometimes come out of the most unlikely places, eg, U Nebraska, Texas A&M, BYU, etc. They may not have Duke on their resume, but some of these kids are very, very smart and very, very able. And in contrast to some of their student peers coming from more prestigious schools, they usually work extremely hard and well with others and bring a lot less of a sense of entitlement to the workplace.</p>
<p>Continuing with the various ways in which one can compare undergrad business schools…</p>
<p>Which school produces grads with the highest salaries? For the universe of undergrad B-schools, following are how those ranked overall in the Top 30 compare. Given the relative degrees of CC hype about this or that so-called elite undergrad business school, it might surprise some to see that the results as bunched as they are. Also note that these results are not adjusted for cost of living factors for where the graduates get their jobs. </p>
<p>Median Salary , School</p>
<p>$ 61,001 , U Penn (Wharton)
$ 60,000 , U Michigan (Ross)
$ 60,000 , MIT (Sloan)
$ 60,000 , Carnegie Mellon (Tepper)
$ 60,000 , Georgetown (McDonough)
$ 59,500 , NYU (Stern)
$ 58,000 , U Virginia (McIntire)
$ 56,500 , Wash U (Olin)
$ 55,000 , Notre Dame (Mendoza)
$ 55,000 , UC Berkeley (Haas)
$ 55,000 , Cornell
$ 55,000 , Emory (Goizueta)
$ 55,000 , U Texas (McCombs)
$ 55,000 , Boston College (Carroll)
$ 55,000 , Lehigh
$ 55,000 , Northeastern
$ 54,000 , U Illinois
$ 53,500 , U North Carolina (Kenan)
$ 53,000 , USC (Marshall)
$ 52,500 , U Richmond (Robins)
$ 52,500 , W&M (Mason)
$ 52,000 , Villanova
$ 52,000 , Indiana U (Kelley)
$ 51,000 , Wake Forest (Calloway)
$ 50,705 , American (Kogod)
$ 50,400 , SMU (Cox)
$ 50,000 , BYU (Marriott)
$ 50,000 , Babson
$ 50,000 , U San Diego
$ 48,500 , U Washington (Foster)
$ 48,000 , Miami U (Farmer)</p>
<p>I don’t know where Businessweek got the figure for Berkeley-Haas from, but the average salary for the Class of 08 was $56,793 (plus $6,169 for the average bonus.) <a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/Haas/HaasSalaryReport2008.pdf[/url]”>https://career.berkeley.edu/Haas/HaasSalaryReport2008.pdf</a></p>
<p>UVa-McIntire’s average salary for the Class of 2008 is $55,911, not $58,000 as reported on Businessweek.</p>
<p>BW’s undergrad B-school ranking is one of the few measurements out there that attempts to quantify and compare the student’s experience and satisfaction. </p>
<p>In the business world, customer satisfaction is obviously necessary in order to have a successful enterprise. By contrast, in the college world, I am frequently surprised by how little weight is given to student input when it comes to evaluating colleges. Student consumers are usually pretty perceptive about the value that they are receiving at ABC College and I always enjoy rankings that take this into consideration. One can legitimately argue about the lack of perspective or objectivity or a pattern of rewarding easier instruction, but I don’t think that that should completely disqualify student input. </p>
<p>So, how happy are the students with their schools, ie, the academic experience that they had in the classroom and the services provided to them in postgraduate job searches/placement, grad school admissions, etc? </p>
<p>IMO this is BW’s most important ranking. </p>
<p>Student Survey Rank , School</p>
<p>1 , U Virginia (McIntire)
2 , Notre Dame (Mendoza)
3 , Cornell
4 , Emory (Goizueta)
5 , MIT (Sloan)
6 , BYU (Marriott)
7 , SMU (Cox)
8 , Villanova
10 , American (Kogod)
11 , U North Carolina (Kenan)
12 , U Texas (McCombs)
13 , U Penn (Wharton)
14 , U Richmond (Robins)
15 , Indiana U (Kelley)
18 , U Michigan (Ross)
20 , Boston College (Carroll)
21 , Babson
22 , Northeastern
24 , UC Berkeley (Haas)
26 , Miami U (Farmer)
28 , U Illinois
29 , NYU (Stern)
32 , Wash U (Olin)
34 , Wake Forest (Calloway)
35 , W&M (Mason)
38 , U Washington (Foster)
40 , U San Diego
42 , USC (Marshall)
44 , Lehigh
45 , Carnegie Mellon (Tepper)
72 , Georgetown (McDonough)</p>
<p>RML,
I don’t know the sources that BW uses in its data gathering, but I suspect it comes directly from the schools. The differences in the numbers you cite and those that BW reported are not large and may just be a difference related to which class is being measured.</p>
<p>Wow, I’m surprised as to how low Stern is ranked in a lot of these stats.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>But I am bigger Sam! I am, I am, I am!! And Wharton is the bestest! It is, it is, it is!!</p>
<p>And everyone knows all Whartonites are the biggest from the day they learn the double secret hand shake!!!</p>
<p>And while Barrons often posts like a high school kid, I’m fairly certain he’s over the hill.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>LoL… you’re not just bigger, hmom5, you’re also the best, the best, the best!!! </p>
<p>you’re enjoying this, hmom5, aren’t you? lol</p>
<p>
hawkette,</p>
<p>I just thought that even a minor difference in numbers would mean a lot when you’re doing rankings… I appreciate your posts, nevertheless.</p>
<p>Business Week does a student survey to determine student satisfaction, and schools are required to get a certain percentage to complete it to be included in the rankings.</p>
<p>hawkette, I don’t mean to imply that employers don’t love students they get from other schools like Texas-Austin or Florida. Its just that those schools don’t add to the brand of an applicant like the ones I listed do. Going to Penn or Michigan improves your resume, while other schools are basically neutral, requiring other things on a students resume to prove they’re exceptional.</p>