<p>They don't manipulate their statistics- their applciations have skyrocketed and they only accept 20 percent of the students that apply. It is a great place to be.</p>
<p>I agree that WashU is a great school but they <em>do</em> manipulate their statistics. They have the most relentless marketing campaign that I've seen and they garner a very high number of applications which guarantees them a very low acceptance rate. I like the school but not their marketing approach.</p>
<p>I agree with Mendy. What is wrong with advertising? It is used by most well-known consumer products. That is how people learn about consumer products. The potential consumer can choose to ignore the advertising, or read it and learn more about the product as they see fit. I would not call that relentless marketing.</p>
<p>I've never understood the attitude toward Wash U on this site. I have to believe that if it was on either coast, especially the East that most people here would be slobbering all over it. </p>
<p>You can't manipulate the rankings enough to get yourself in 10th or 11th place. Maybe 9th place was undeserved but I don't think tied with Northwestern is so off. There is more to the rankings than acceptance rate. I don't like Wash U's marketing campaign either. I've even spoken with the admissions director about it and suggested she take a look at doing some more targeted and smarter marketing. You don't have to hit people over the head with a sledge hammer to be effective. Unfortunately it is working for them. They are gettting a better quality of student every year,so why change something that works. </p>
<p>And for all of you naysayers who consistently put down Wash U (and probably live on a coast) Wash U has only recently risen to the top 10. It has long been an unknown and unrecognized university. I would wager to bet that most of you making negative pot shots know nothing about it as a school. When I respond to the question of "Where does your son go to college" and I tell them Wash U, I get blank looks and am two states away. In a year and a half, I have had one person, other than a doctor who knew about the school. </p>
<p>So complain all you want about their marketing, but please stop connecting bad marketing with a bad product. It ain't soap.</p>
<p>Also WUSTL has done something else which is rerely talked about to boost their rankings. The reason WUSTL is more selective than Columbia and Dartmouth etc. in USNEWS is because WUSTL gives many full rides. It boosts their stats artificially, although obviously giving free rides is a good thing. And no one really believes it is more selective than those schools.</p>
<p>Interestingly (at least to me), I agree with TheDad (but moreso), but I also agree with Mendy and 1sokkermom (but again moreso).</p>
<p>Caveat: There is not a single new thought to follow. Others have said all of these things more accurately, completely, and artfully than I will. But, perhaps I might cobble all of these meaty topics together in a way that might provide a slightly different way of looking at all of this.</p>
<p>Does Wash-U manipulate its statistics? Of course it does. Their mass mailing blitz generates many more interested students, many of whom have little real chance of being accepted. So, whether its the primary goal of their mailing blitz or not (I don't think it is, but I also think they love the incidental benefit), their acceptance rate goes down and, poof, higher USNWR rankings. Then, as others have mentioned in the past, they routinely deny some top students who haven't shown the demonstrated interests (again, that's an entirely defensible thing to do with a nice little USNWR related incidental benefit) and waitlist rather than deny many others. Both of these strategies increase yield (at least in the way USNWR seems to measure yield), and, poof, higher USNWR rankings. And what about how their marketing blitz likely increases the percentage of top kids who are interested in applying (allowing them to have higher scoring classes as a whole) and how this same blitz, and the increased USNWR rankings, might assist in getting alums off the snide and donating more money. Do these things help the USNWR rankings? Of course. Could they be considered "manipulative?" Sure.</p>
<p>On the other hand ... the above is marketing and not the school. It has nothing to do with the quality of the programs, facilities, faculty, or students. It says nothing about the campus ambience and the social life. I grew up in the midwest, most of my family is here, but I've lived extended portions of my adult life on both coasts and points in-between. Many people fail to take into account that Wash-U had a long, long history of being considered a virtually unknown "gem" for many, many years. Very few people knew about the school between the 1960's through the mid 1990's. Those in the know pretty much included the academes and selected pools of those who had studied college education, whether they lived in the midwest or in the Maryland-NYC-Boston corridor.</p>
<p>As a purist, I find Wash-U's marketing absolutely "relentless" and distasteful. Yet, why should they be content to run an excellent unknown school when aggressive marketing (aggressive in terms of volume -- the content is always very professional and dignified -- and certainly appearing more aggressive than it really is because of the comparison with college marketing generally which is virtually comatose in its feel) can solve the "unknown" issue? While more people know about them, a lot of this knowledge is at a very superficial level. Think of the backlash it gets. People rail about Wash-U and the USNWR: How can Wash-U be ranked so high, I DON"T KNOW ABOUT THEM ... or ... the only reason people know about them is because of their marketing ... or the USNWR [insert your favorite pejorative verb here] because no way is a school like Wash-U "better" than [insert the name of your alma mater, your kids school, or your plain old favorite school here]. All of this begs the question, because what do any of these people really know about the school ... the academic institution itself?</p>
<p>Yeah, Wash-U manipulates the USNWR. And other than for the limited number of college-junkies and zealots who are put off by marketing, the USNWR ranking increase, accomplished by a host of factors, but most of which seem logically linked to their aggressive marketing, this so-called manipulation has resulted in an excellent school becoming even better: better programs, facilities, faculty, students, research budgets, and more. </p>
<p>And one final thought: For all those who really get offended that Wash-U is "manipulating" the USNWR -- so what?! The USNWR college ranking industry is a cash-cow, marketing tool of the highest order. There is no inherent sacred weight to the USNWR rankings. Far from it. Is the USNWR somehow to be admired or revered? If a school can truly throw the USNWR rankings into a dizzy by pretty simple changes in their marketing and admissions practices, then one should certainly be very wary of the entire USNWR rankings generally. How could there be any real ability to distinguish between schools ranked 1, 2, 5, or 10 slots apart by the USNWR, when schools like Wash-U and others (many have charged such schools as Duke, Penn, Emory, Vanderbilt, Tufts and others with similar crimes against USNWR-humanity) can brazenly manipulate the USNWR and simply soar in these oh-so-objective rankings? To me, the incidental benefit of this backlash against Wash-U is that more and more people might understand how arbitrary, capricious, and somewhat meaningless the USNWR's attempt is in their continuing (and lucrative) efforts to attach supposed objectivity (via detailed rankings) to an exercise which is clearly so incredibly subjective.</p>
<p>Edit: As predicted, as I was writing this mess, Lizschupp made most of these points better and more succinctly than I could.</p>
<p>I apologize for making that comment about people who live on the coasts. I know Thedad lives in southern California and consistently defends Wash U. It is just that I think there is sometimes a subtle elitist view on this board that eminates from either coast and because of it, sometimes Midwestern colleges and probably other parts of the country get short shrift. This comment is a prime example of what I'm talking about,</p>
<p>"I haven't met anyone's parents who graduated from OSU in Silicon Valley - arguably one of the toughest and most competitive places in our country and our world. If OSU actually did provide a "very solid education," then there'd be thousands of OSU graduates here; but that's not the case. "</p>
<p>Just because you live in a wonderful place doesn't mean everyone else wants to live there. Sometimes we prefer to just visit. Did it ever occur to that poster that maybe , just maybe there are no OSU graduates in Silicon Valley because they choose to stay close to home.</p>
<p>Dudedilligence,
Well I appreciate all that you've said about Wash U and feel your comments have been quite eloquent. It's nice to have company.</p>
<p>Liz:</p>
<p>I actuallly live on a coast too. (East) </p>
<p>My son applied to Wash U. and was accepted there. It was absolutely one of my favorites of his final choices. I personally felt that the individual attention that they provided to him was fine. They had some great programs (academic, theater, athletics (D-III)) that would probably be a very good fit for him. I think that it would be as good a choice for him as where he is now, but a little harder to travel to logistically. We also own property on the NC coast, a bit closer to where he is now for visiting purposes.</p>
<p>In fact, he just got the brochure for this year's Summer Program. I guess he's still on their mailing list. That's OK.</p>
<p>Thanks, Soccermom. Again apologies for making bi-coastal generalities.</p>
<p>Agree with posts way back about St. Olaf. All the grads I know from there are some of the most interesting, compassionate and all around good people I know.</p>
<p>Sokkermom, all schools advertise or, as I'm sure they'd prefer to put it, promote themselves, one way or the other. WashU differs in the exceedingly high volume and the way, as so nicely outlined by DudeDilligence, it runs a campaign with an almost military focus and discipline, in comparison to most efforts that are fairly genteel and range among overly slick to amateurish to quaint to nicely done and effective. </p>
<p>The other thing I note about DudeDiligence's post is the overmarketed hype of the USNews ratings themselves. It's a marketing tool to sell magazines, not revealed Holy Writ.</p>
<p>
[quote]
. . . the overmarketed hype of the USNews ratings themselves. It's a marketing tool to sell magazines, not revealed Holy Writ.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Exactly. Their rankings "franchise" is a valuable commodity, but the commodity exists to sell magazines and website memberships. The value of their franchise is clearly enhanced by a certain consistency and apparent objectivity (dare I say -- integrity) in their rankings, but no doubt USNWR is going to indulge in the standard marketing tools used by most magazines to drum up sales: comfort and familiarity (something like TheDad rule -- in this case, HYP always first); and for a little controversy and sex appeal, the occasional shooting star (Duke; Penn; Wash-U) or plummeting rock (can't think of any great examples here -- perhaps Chicago?).</p>
<p>How often have each of us heard an overwrought student agonize about "How can I choose School X over School Y -- School X is ranked 5, while School Y is ranked 9?" Or, worse, "I really love School A, it has everything I'm looking for in a school, but it's only ranked 22 -- how can I possibly turn down School B? I'm not crazy about it, but it is ranked 7th." How did the USNWR rankings become "revealed Holy Writ?" Does anyone truly think it is? And does anyone honestly believe the originators of this methodology ever believed that their ranking would attain so much popular weight? They've got to be silly with laughter; laughing all the way to the bank.</p>
<p>Frankly, TD, I see a great opening for TheDad's rankings. Can I suggest a name? How about "TheDad Knows Best?" The ease in which some of these schools manipulate the USNWR signals the USNWR's imminent demise. You should be ready to fill that profitable niche. One warning -- you might want to rank Wash-U, Duke, Penn and some others very high -- if you're smart enough to outfox the USNWR, you must be smart enough to run a pretty good school.</p>
<p>I don't care whether WUSTL manipulates the US News rankings or not; what I do care about is how I get a piece of mail from them everyday. It makes me look down on the school (although I still think it is a really great school) that they would market their school like a cabaret down in the red light district. You don't see any of the other top schools bombarding the country with marketing material.</p>
<p>For those of you who receive frequent mail from WUSTL, did you ever send them anything? A postcard? My son received an unsolicited packet of info from WUSTL in September, didn't return anything, and hasn't been bothered by them since. I don't consider one envelope to be an inundation of junk mail.</p>
<p>I've never gotten any mass mailings from any cabaret in the red light district! How do you get on THAT mailing list?</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>UC_Benz~</p>
<p>We get "junk" mail from -- all of the banks, some banks much more than others (having nothing to do with which bank is more "prestigious"); all of the airline frequent flyers clubs, some more than others; all of the grocery stores, again some more than others. You've identified that you dislike junk mail. Understood. You've also linked this kind of marketing to a low-life type of business. You're intimating that Wash-U is too desperate, needy, aggressive, whatever. Again, you've made your point.</p>
<p>Perhaps our household is different, but while Wash-U is clearly the leader among unsolicited mail from the top-tier of universities, we get a LOT of unsolicited marketing from many other top-tier universities. Wash-U might be the most aggressive, but certainly not the only aggressive marketer.</p>
<p>It might be interesting to see who gets what (I'm using a combination of what my son got junior and senior year, plus what my daughter is currently getting in her junior year -- similar students with similar PSAT's and other standardized test scores).</p>
<p>2nd most aggressive -- UChicago (quirky, fun stuff, but a lot of it) -- probably 75% of Wash-U's volume.</p>
<p>3rd most aggressive -- NYU (easily 70-75% of Wash-U's level)</p>
<p>4th most aggressive -- Tulane.</p>
<p>5th most aggressive -- MIT (and the cost of producing some of their brochures is mind-boggling).</p>
<p>6th most aggressive -- Duke (easily 50% of the Wash-U level).</p>
<p>Other notable guerilla marketers (many more than one): Columbia, Harvard, and Yale.</p>
<p>HONORABLE MENTION goes to the various so-called "Summer Experiences" from Brown, Harvard, Cornell, Stanford, and Wash-U. In this "profit center," Wash-U is a mere amateur compared to some of these other schools, most notably Brown and Harvard.</p>
<p>DudeD:</p>
<p>The mass mailings may be somewhat regional. Interestingly enough, I don't think son got any "unsolicited" mail from any of the schools you mentioned. He actually had to send emails requesting information from a couple of those on your list. (including the one he is now attending) However, he did get bombarded with lots and lots of mail. - Enough to fill at least two paper bags full for the recycle bin. (I think he got several pieces from each of the ivies, so they clearly do try to market themselves too.)</p>
<p>DudeDiligence, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. Case Western Reserve is definitely the worst offender...They sent a postcard almost every day. As a future ecologist, I was irritated by this tremendous waste of paper. Note Case's less-than-prominent role in the USNWR rankings; clearly, advertisement is not everything. :)</p>
<p>I can't believe no one mentioned the University of Minnesota, this was my second choice school, and it has stellar stats.</p>
<p>Average ACT's in the engineering, business and biological science schools were 28+ ACT scores.</p>
<p>Michigan, Northwestern, Chicago, and Notre Dame in that order</p>