I also work in finance and while we do recruit a significant number of kids with finance degrees the vast majority come from more “eclectic” backgrounds. The 6 of 8 ivies and all the LACs without dedicated business curriculums are all heavily recruited from. Up thread I provided a brief list of current bank CEOs and you will see this pattern. Just mentioning so that undergrad B school doesn’t feel like the only path, when in fact most come from humanities backgrounds.
I appreciate her ambition to make a lot of money but given how rigorous the first years in a finance career can be I would caution her against going into it unless it really was an extension of her intellectual curiosity. It can be sole crushing and ultimately as you know not everyone makes it to the promised land.
If your D is looking for a great “payout” professionally, she ought to explore actuarial science, biostatistics, and frankly, any subfield within applied math. The career paths aren’t as lockstep as the “start as an analyst and move up”; the work typically won’t require the 80 hour weeks that the new finance hires are logging; and the roles/hiring cycles aren’t as dependent on the economy.
Did you discuss 2009/2010 with your D? Nobody likes to remember the bust years-- when top finance grads literally could not get a job (because once Lehman and Bear Stearns went belly up, the entire finance sector froze its hiring targets).
It isn’t pleasant graduating into an economy where offers are getting canceled (or not extended in the first place). And nobody can predict five years out. Not even Warren Buffet and he’s a pretty good prognosticator.
Actuary is a terrific field and even in bad years, someone is always hiring. Many fewer sharp elbows; most organizations are NOT up or out (which makes some fantastic jobs in finance a bit too “Hunger Games” for many), possible for decent work/life balance which is not the case in finance.
I guess what I’m reflecting on is that you haven’t posted much here that suggests that not getting into Ross would be problematic. And could be a blessing in disguise…
My daughter interned in NYC last summer (not IB) and has many, many friends who were interning in IB/finance. What you are saying is absolutely true, especially for the young women she knows. Her close friend who has had a laser focus on a certain aspect and of the industry loved the experience, didn’t mind the long hours, and was thrilled with her return offer. Other female friends who were there because they could be (meaning they were smart and accomplished enough to get the internship but had less of the intellectual curiosity) had far less positive experiences. The ones from that group who got return offers received them with far more ambivalence.
I believe kids should pursue their interests. But I get the money part. It is real.
And statistically, certain majors are less hirable. Some will dispute it saying we need English or classics or history majors which we might but their job success isn’t there.
My kid is in 4 six month rotations. He’s going to job 2 in a month and decided no more roommates. But best case for a studio it’s $1500 a month and it’s terrifying to him.
If he made $40-50k, he couldn’t pull it off.
It’s back to your comment on having choices of you make enough.
In case you missed this up thread here are the academic backgrounds of a sampling of current CEOs of US CIBs.
Bank/Name/School/major
BOA Moynihan Brown History
GS Solomon Hamilton Poli Sci
JPM Dimon Tufts psychology
Jeff Handler Rochester Economics
Sant Riley Princeton Romance Lang.
HSBC Roberts U Texas Economics
Wells Scharf Hopkins independent
Fraser Citi Cambridge Economics
Hassan UBS Princeton Economics
For what’s it worth some of these are direct peers of mine and I was a Philosophy type undergraduate. Often heard you will never get a job yet somehow it miraculously worked out😀
I must be misunderstanding this…I thought your son made a LOT more than $40-50K.
But back to the job desirability issue…and money. I’m a big fan of “do what you love and you will love what you do”.
And quality of life can matter more than the money. One of our kids is a freelance musician. The other is a doctor. I can say with certainty that they both love what they do. BUT the musician has a nicer quality of life…much less stressful. Better control of work schedules, etc. The money one makes is far more than the other, but really…that doesn’t make up for the quality of life issues sometimes.
Note the first word. Oh typo by me. Couldn’t pull it off.
Yes he can afford to live alone although as he says it’s $800 or $900 a month gone but he’s decided to him it’s worth it. He’s a neat freak and his current roomie, while neater than he had b4, he just decided he doesn’t want to do it again.
My point was -let’s say my daughter made $40-50k, she couldn’t pull that off. Fortunately she’s a slob. So won’t be an issue if it came to that although she’s already got her life planned living with her guy.
The point being - statistically major does matter. But it is a bummer that some kids (many based on the # of CS majors) choose for earning power and not love.
I thik it is good to get 16-17 year olds to start thinking about the outcomes of their education with the lens of gainful employment to meet their envisioned lifestyles. It is a bit much to understand for most but good to start now. Of course a Chicano Studies major could end up at Wall Street or a biology major could end up in event management - who knows but more often than not people spend years trying to figure this out well after college. Most colleges also do not do a good enough job of getting kids to also prioritize employability
I have 5, my oldest was my theater kid, started around age 10 in community theater, choirs, throughout college (she’s a cpa but performs several times a week). The next played soccer is HS, club in college, plus a few community theater performances, in the HS plays since 8th grade (they needed a tenor), plus choirs. Third was my xc/track/dance kid, broke a school track record, made it to states every year, plus school plays and choirs, next was my soccer/track kid, varsity and club, plus choirs, fastest female sprinter in HS, also broke a school record, plus choirs. Last was soccer and track, varsity and club, plus choirs. My sports kids were all varsity captains, multiple teams. Yes, xc/track is a walk on, but there are those who never miss practice and run at every meet, and take it seriously. Honestly the most brutal time consuming activity was the competitive Irish dance, but I doubt many would know that. I do think the fact they all worked throughout HS was equally impressive. Football is another sport that, at least here, there are no cuts.
D21 loves math, she is a junior and just passed her second actuary exam and is interning with Aon this summer (and she gets an automatic raise if she passes the 3rd in the spring). She wants to take 5 in total before graduation.
My kids work too. Only a few hours per week during the school year, but I think there is tremendous value IMO. More kids should “scoop ice cream” instead of trying to chase an “impressive EC.”
Aon is a fantastic firm (as you know) and your D is insanely impressive! I have heard (don’t know from personal experience) that actuary is a particularly terrific field for young women right now. Several reasons-- but one of the biggest being that by the time you’re at the “balancing children and work” stage of your career, you’ll be able to pull off either a flexible schedule, or a traditional schedule with lots of “work from wherever” time, or “take a few years off and come back without a huge penalty”. Which is not something you can say about most lucrative careers! I have a friend who is an MD who took time away while her kids were very young-- and she ended up having to re-take ALL of her boards before the hospital where she worked would take her back. (it was hell, she claims. MUCH harder the second time around…)
Thank you! Her hustle has been great. She loves working, even jobs like cashier or server, a trait unfortunately her twin brother does not have (he works, but has never really enjoyed most of his jobs). My oldest is a cpa for some of the same reasons you mentioned.
Appreciate the work on the list. CEO of massive institutions isn’t probably a great example for anyone. It’s sort of like listing our NFL QBs and their backgrounds. I see CEO and that path as more of a business mgmt track and less so a finance track really. Her alternate on most applications has been economics so I see a lot of those in your list. Of course, these are mostly all elite top 10 schools, and that is more of a factor here than the major. She’s applying to a few of those but these days the odds are so low of getting in, even if you’re fully qualified. So we may be looking at a solid state school, where I’m guessing you might see fewer mega CEOs that majored in Romance languages at U Alabama
Actually almost everyone on that list (and me) worked their way up either being I bankers or running various financial and capital markets teams.
It isn’t only however at the senior most levels that you see humanities majors. It is every kid from an Ivy (except Penn and Cornell) and every kid from a LAC. These schools are roughly 50-65% of most CIB analyst recruitment classes.
On this I agree and many have advanced degrees. I am just trying to assure you that the an undergraduate finance or business degree isn’t a prerequisite if the school itself has a reputation for rigor and your kid does well there.
My fear on actuarial science (aside from all of the childhood jokes about it being the least interesting career possible) is that it’s prime for a near term AI revolution. As someone who works in advanced finance and sees how yard the companies are pushing us all to come up with AI solutions ASAP to replace the quant/math type jobs, I would be a bit leery as a human calculator. There will always be people who work as actuarial co-pilots and “watchers”, but I expect the total number to reduce.
However, not before this next College generation comes out of college armed with AI skills and makes a killing. It’s the 4-8 years after that I worry about.
Does one need to apply to actuarial for an undergraduate or is it more of a graduate thing after say an economics or math undergrad?
The thread has turned a bit cynical here, turning into more of a “you can’t get into any schools, you can’t afford them, and all the career paths you are thinking of are terrible”. Bumming me out for sure.
I do think you can talk about many of the jobs - the hours and years lawyers put in is far worse imho than what I see every day from our young analysts. I don’t see many working 80 hours either. I see them working 50-55 hours a week and maybe a bit on weekends if they want to get ahead. But as someone who works 50-55 hours a week myself plus night and weekend support, I shrug a bit. I see analysts go home at 4:01 pm when the market closes and I’m working until 6:30 and then supporting systems at night.
Doctors and nurses are devastated by their jobs and hours.
There are a lot of bad paths when it comes to quality of life, and even more jobs that pay peanuts and have a decent work life balance.
Mostly the thread is making me want to throw my hands up in the air and say why bother with anything? But will try to stay positive
I’m guessing you said except Cornell because it’s seen as the weaker Ivy (I assume aside from those who went there), but Penn is interesting as I would have assumed it right up at the top.
Suffice to say, that is not the case at the BB my kid works at, nor her friends at other bulge bracket banks. I do wonder how many older posters really have a good understanding of this year’s, or last year’s class, for example, or are just assuming the class of 2023 looks like the class of 2017. Not.
If a bank hires broadly, that is great. But every single one of my kid’s classmates at her famous bulge bracket employer was a finance or econ major. Just a data point to consider.
