What an interesting rabbit-hole. I don’t think @homerdog 's daughter is being elitist. She’s making perfectly reasonable distinctions. Most of our kids, if finances were not a factor, got accepted into an honor’s program at a State University but also got accepted to a top liberal arts college like Bowdoin, Vassar or Hamilton, and big-name privates like the University of Chicago or Stamford would probably pick the a top LAC or the big name schools. Her daughter prefers small schools, so it makes sense that she’s not interested in a big state school, and probably less interested in a less-competitive big state school.
My son (who just graduated HS in 2019) got accepted to a broad-range of schools from non-competitive private, to somewhat competitive state universities to pretty competitive (but not elite) liberal arts colleges. He eliminated those we couldn’t afford and, upon visiting his top 4 (2 state univ and 2 LAC) he went with the school where he felt he would fit-in better. And fit, partially, was having students he would connect with. For my son, connection was partially based on academic interest/achievement and overall intellectual curiosity. It’s not that he can’t get that at a good state university, but he’s more likely to be surrounded by that at a smaller, well-rated, liberal arts school.
Isn’t that why our kids have reaches, matches and safeties?
I’m a big fan of Colleges that Change Lives and their whole philosophy of eschewing name-brand elitism. In fact, my son is attending one of the CTCL schools. But even those really progressive and supportive (we like diamonds in the rough) LAC’s seemed better matches for my son that, let’s say, a good state university with students more broadly across the spectrum academically. I think he would have been perfectly happy with any of his top 4, but, given the choice, he picked the school that attracted somewhat higher-achieving students, among other reasons.
I have kids across the spectrum. Some who started in community college to end up at a good city college, others who are picking a solid liberal arts college.
But she succeeded in high school despite (or maybe because) of being surrounded by these non-accelerated kids. You didn’t change high schools (or grade or middle schools) so she could only be surrounded by other students who may not have advanced much beyond Algebra 2.
I have two kids who are very different students. And one barely passed Algebra 2. They didn’t go to the same college but could have and had their academic needs met (and social, and financial), just like they went to the same high school (as most siblings do) even if they had different academic needs. When we were selecting high schools I looked at different schools for them but in the end decided that school we were assigned to would work the best for both of them and for our family. I looked at the School of the Arts, the IB program at a different high school, a Catholic school, the K-12 school one attended for middle school (expeditionary learning school). The ‘regular’ school would have worked best as it had a pretty good theater program for one and a great robotics program for the other and only 1200 students total. In the end we moved and they went to a school in another state, so all that searching and comparing was for naught.
My humanities kid didn’t have the scores to get into a top LAC, but that doesn’t mean she wouldn’t have contributed to the academic experience of others. We looked at some of the best LACs for her sister (engineer) who did have the scores and grades, and was being recruited for athletics, but had NO interest in the academics at those schools (Oberlin, Kenyon, Smith, Centre) and I kept thinking those schools were really missing out on the student who would have loved to have been there, who would have liked discussing art and theater and great books and museums - my other daughter. That daughter got to do all that discussing of books and working on theater productions at a public school that has a 99% acceptance rate but plenty of kids in the honors college and a top engineering program. She is what teachers describe as ‘a delight to have in class’ but her math and science scores kept her from getting into a top LAC. Turned out she did just fine in math and science at college.
So at the LACs or more selective schools, OP’s daughter is still going to have classmates who may not push her or contribute to the academic vibe but are at the school because of legacy status or sports or because it was the cheapest There are going to be top students who are only interested in their own grades and don’t work well in a group. There are going to be student who never do homework because they don’t have to, because they are super smart and just absorb the information without much effort or because the class is easy. Happens even at Harvard.
I think OP’s daughter would prefer to be at a school with my humanities daughter who was not such hard worker in high school but absorbs ideas and devours books and art for fun than with my top student daughter who hates to read and couldn’t care less about humanities, world events, politics, art, or theater, who doesn’t like discussing anything and hates working in groups or in labs with others. I think OP’s daughter is going to find kids like both of my kids at every college out there.
@twoinanddone she’s not in class with anyone outside the top 20 percent of the class so, no, she’s not surrounded by other kinds of students. In the honors and AP classes, you only get the more studious kids. She has plenty of friends who she doesn’t have in class (through ECs) but she’s very happy in her honors classes where the kids really push each other in a good way. Our public high school is highly ranked and 98 percent of the 750 per class go to four year colleges. There was no need to pay for her to go to a private school.
@ucbalumnus see my above message. Almost everyone goes to four year college here no matter what kind of student they are. A handful go to community college and one or two enlist.
@twoinanddone : Enjoy reading your posts. Very thoughtful.
My point in posting in this thread is to address OP’s question of “Best Way To Find School For Undecided Student”. Seems that OP & daughter have a closed mind about anything but an LAC. Which is fine–especially for a full pay student, but then why create this thread ?
A key component in any search is to ask the right questions–something that would reveal that a large university–whether public or private–does not necessarily mean being housed a great distance from classroom buildings or that the school lacks intimacy (especially for one interested in sorority life).
If the daughter was a rising senior with actual standardized test scores–ACT or SAT–then the search could be further refined since the daughter is seeking academically accomplished, motivated classmates.
Very easy to adjust to life at an LAC during one’s first year, and probably more difficult to do at a large university. Does one seek comfort or growth ? Depends upon the individual.
Attending an LAC is fine, but does joining a sorority at a small LAC make the LAC too small ?
For an undecided student, an LAC seems too confining to me. Just an extension of high school.
Perhaps the University of Wisconsin–a mamoth sized school with 30,000 undergraduates and a very significant graduate population–was not the best place to start looking to determine whether one wants to consider non-LACs.
I encourage OP’s daughter to keep an open mind. If she does well on the ACT or SAT, then consider Virginia, UNC, Vanderbilt, Duke, WFU, Boston College, University of Vermont’s Honors College, and many other schools.
@Publisher I started this thread because D is undecided and not STEM so I was looking for advice from parents who had kids like that to see how they approached the search. I also wanted to learn what kids do with non-stem degrees and if particular types of schools find their non-stem kids having an easier time finding jobs (ie is there a difference in outcomes for a psych student from Davidson versus Wisconsin). I was trying to find out what questions to ask schools as we tour. I have received a lot of good insight throughout this thread but we have swayed back and forth on the topic.
@homerdog
So, in summary, here’s what seems to be what you’re looking for, and perhaps, what has been advised:
Liberal Arts Colleges, small to medium size, maybe 1500 - 3000, with an intimate feel and close-knit student body.
Selective to highly selective. Colleges that Change Lives consortium (and similar schools) as matches and safeties, and the more accessible Hidden Ivies as matches (like Bates, Gettysburg, Connecticut College), with the elite tier of the Hidden Ivies as reaches (eg. Bowdoin, Amherst, Swarthmore, etc).
Something not too remote, preferably suburban, small city or charming small town.
Solid opportunities for research and internships and strong career services and alumni network, to maximize career opportunities with a Bachelor's degree.
A place that's not too artsy (no one makes money after college) or social-justice-y (walking on egg shells, de-platforming, lack of view point diversity).
A place that's not too conservative, but still allows for a traditional college experience, like Greek life.
If that list looks comprehensive and accurate, perhaps having people give you constructive ideas on questions for campus tours or ideas to get the information you want about each of the six criteria.
For example, I suggested, looking at LinkedIn to help assess the alumni network size in a particular geographies. It would give you a sense if the recent grads are gainfully employed in interesting careers. Perhaps contacting the office of alumni relations and talking to alums in your area might help. Talking to the office of career services helps too.
I found that some schools couldn’t talk enough about research and internship opportunities (which builds their college resume), so trying to get a feel for that would help. Some schools had tour guides that didn’t even know where the career services office was, probably had never visited it, and only planned to drop in second semester senior year to parlay a degree in under water basket weaving into a high-paying job.
One thing to note is that if she wants to find peers in terms of academic strength, she may want to look at larger schools for the safety and likely portions of her application list.
If she does have to attend a safety or likely school, she is likely near the top end of academic strength at such a school (let’s say top 5% for example). At a small school with 500 students in the frosh class, that means that she may find 25 academic peers. Perhaps only a few of them will be in her major. It is less likely that there will be honors or similar courses to cater to the very small number of top-end students. In contrast, at a large school with 5,000 students in the frosh class, she may find 250 academic peers, with more than a few in her major. The likelihood of honors or similar courses, or other more rigorous options, is greater.
Something to consider: you say your daughter is undecided about major and doesn’t think she’ll want to attend grad school. That seems to make an LAC not the greatest choice, since the overwhelming majority of LAC grads end up in grad school to secure the jobs the want. So perhaps you should prioritize that and look for schools with a wider range of majors.
@itsgettingreal17 Hm. S19 is going to Bowdoin. Has no interest in grad school. We asked a lot of questions and he met a lot of kids who got pretty darn good jobs after graduation. Again, though, he will probably be a math major so maybe he’s got more options since he will have more a more quantitative major. That’s why I started this thread to find out what kind of jobs non-STEM kids get out of different types of schools. I think I’ve also asked (or maybe just wondered to myself) if going to the most highly ranked school one can if she’s going to be non-STEM makes a difference, because the name on her diploma may help open doors or alumni might be more involved. This really is the crux of my anxiety. Can she go to Denison, be a political science major and find a job? Will it be harder than if, say, she went to Wake or Davidson? I’m honestly thinking a big school is not the answer. She’s be one of how many psych or history majors coming from a big school all competing against each other for jobs? At a smaller school, maybe she will seem a little more special? Or have closer relationships with professors who can help her? Or have alumni who are more dedicated to helping a smaller group of psych or history majors as they graduate?
The Bowdoin alumni we’ve met seem to bend over backwards to help the students. Do the alumni from Northwestern help (where my husband and I went to school) ? Kind of… but there are SO many NU grads that it’s not that intimate of a bonding experience where, at a LAC, the alumni have fewer kids to help but really stick up for them. Does that make sense?
Northwestern University is well known for alumni support. Nevertheless, it is not essential as a degree from Northwestern University is respected & valuable in the job marketplace.
If your daughter attends an LAC as a non-stem major, then be sure to budget for grad school unless attending a very highly ranked LAC.
@itsgettingreal17 I will say this. Davidson and Richmond both have a communications major that might be interesting to her. Many other LACs do not. That’s where she needs to start thinking a little bit about if she might want something like that and if that makes her more marketable. She could still double major in something else more academic. Wake also has more majors that might interest her and help with job placement. A place like Bowdoin does not offer as many majors. That could be a downside for her.
I love WFU & the University of Richmond, but neither are liberal or good fits for a near-social justice warrior minded student. Both schools are pre-professional as are Colgate & Bucknell.
She’s not even close to a SJW! She’s a white bread, ballerina and pom pom girl from a big public school. LOL. Just because she’s got liberal views on things like abortion rights, does not mean she’s even close to a SJW. Believe me. We send kids to Colgate and Wake from our high school and she matches them perfectly. She just wouldn’t fit a school like Liberty.
Ack, OP’s questions and position have been crystal clear to me and no one should load it on just because he or she is being frank. There are so many rubber stamp questions on freaking CC and too many rubber stamp answers to them. Not OP’s fault.
Let’s rephrase. She’s not turning her nose up at anyone, not stuffed with false pride and demands because of her successes. This isn’t something about OP affording full pay. It’s just that tis kid wants a moderate sized college, with lots of opps to explore majors, some school spirit and a sense of tightness with friends…and the opportunity to be stretched, in the ways she wants.
D1 was similar. In fact, she expressed it as: a college where there will be many/enough kids ahead of her that she will be personally stretched. Afaic, fine goal. Se wanted a better benchmark, for herself, not for prestige.
Se did apply to some schools less ardent classmates applied to (and they got in, as did she.) But her #1 offered that chance to not just glide. She was personally enriched by the academic strengths and drives of her peers, the professors’ standards and expectations, grew tremendously, did well- and kept her humility.
And OP’s gal not on CC fussing, like some kids, even rising sophs jumping the gun. Her parent, a long-ish term poster is gathering ideas. I think she has milestones to pass, but the questions are valid.
@lookingforward Ha! The last place D21 would be is on CC asking strangers about where she should go to school. She’s not THAT focused on it yet. She’s only going to be a junior. She’s focused on her new schedule, which she just got, and seeing who is in her classes. She’s more concerned about who she will go to Homecoming with than her college list. That’s why I’m working on it for now.
The near-sjw comment was in reference to @homerdog post #65 in this thread which stated that the daughter is liberal and gets worked up about things but not to the level of a sjw.
Some may disagree, but your daughter’s success will not depend on whether Elon. Davidson, Wake Forest, or Denison is written on her diploma. Her success will depend on HER…and whether she likes her school, has friends, is engaged, driven, etc. My daughter’s friend attended her safety (a well known school with about 4000 kids) and after a period of sulking…she knocked it way out of the ballpark. Once she accepted her school, she found her people. She was in some type of scholars program, she had the best internship offers …in major cities, etc.
My point is to find schools your D likes…which for her clearly means LACs. She likes the smaller classes, feels they have greater intimacy, etc. Great! Then…you/she can look at these schools more thoroughly and determine which ones best meet her needs.
If she loves Davidson then by all means apply…but recognize that the school (like many others) has many “average excellent” kids…ordinary smart kids…just like Wisconsin. My coworker’s daughter applied ED to Davidson…and was accepted with an ACT of 31. Smart? Yes. Some kind of out of the box thinker that can’t be found elsewhere? Nope. Just a regular smart kid who plays field hockey, likes to socialize, and whose application strategy worked.
Just be careful not to “romanticize” schools. There is a lot of fuzziness out there…lots of overlap. Things don’t fit neatly into different compartments…as in success looks like this…and not like that. Not sure if I am making sense.
Backtracking a bit here…but I don’t see anything wrong with wanting to be with ones academic peers. Isn’t that the point of match/ reach schools…or honors colleges?