Best way to find school for undecided student

Interesting but not surprising that the overwhelming majority of LAC grads get advanced degrees.

This a a very real and honest statement that gets overlooked a lot on CC when we discuss college options for high stat kids. One small example, my D20 experience in AP Biology as a junior. During lab, D was paired with a student/friend (senior) who was not nearly as strong in Bio and relied almost exclusively on D to get “A’s” on their lab assignments. I believe the the student ended with up with a “B” in the class but they both knew D was the one that got her an “A” in the lab portion as the student readily admitted to us. Fast forward to college admissions, do you think D would be happy to attend the same college (JMU) with her fellow HS classmate knowing that she was not an academic peer?

I believe most top students need/want to be challenged by the best group of peers, faculty and programs that they can attain.

I’d suggest that the sheer number of students at large schools (like JMU or Iowa) means a critical mass of top notch students, especially in competitive majors.

The idea that having non-academic peers on campus greatly diminishes the high stats kid’s experience is truly distasteful to me. Those “lesser” students likely have valuable skills in other areas (creativity, problem-solving, presentation, “people” skills) which are an asset in the classroom and in group projects. A mix of talents and abilities is certainly more representative of the working world than a cocoon where high stats kids need never associate with students who aren’t their academic peers.

@LuckyCharms913 well D might say what’s the point of having a crazy schedule and hours upon hours of homework if she’s going to go to school with her classmates who never try and have loads of free time. I know you all would say she should take the classes that are right for her regardless but I’m talking to a 16 year old here. Just telling the truth. Would you honestly want to go to college with kids you’ve known since you were five who don’t care about school? This is why S19’s safeties were schools that no one goes to from our school. If he had ended up at one, he at least would not have the same result as some of the kids at our school who are poor students. Just being real as Alabama Hanna would say.

I would guess that when students want to avoid high school classmates in college, part of it may be wanting “academic peers” but part of it may also be getting away from kids who belittled them for not being “fun” or “cool” or something else that had some kind of social cachet. If those kids made them feel even a little bad about themselves – directly or by dominating the social hierarchy – and might do it again, who needs it? Why not go somewhere where there’s no past? Again, I don’t think @homerdog 's D will lose anything by eliminating schools that are popular in her high school – whether her reasoning is rational or not. If the family couldn’t afford anything else or if her stats or desired major weren’t a fit anywhere else, it’d be an issue. But that’s not the case.

I can’t seem to let this go even though it really has nothing to do with this thread - our kids don’t want to go to Iowa because they don’t want their “result” at the end of high school to be the same as the kids who aren’t good students. They are friends with all kinds of kids and would be just fine “running into them”. Our kids aren’t “uncool” or have kids telling them they they are. I am having a hard time understanding why this is hard to grasp. You’ve got a student with all AP and honors classes and four or more hours a homework a day vs a student with no honors classes who has more like 90 min on homework per day. You’ve got a student who was accelerated in math two grades ahead starting in six grade versus kids who will only take three years of math in high school and not get past Algebra 2. How could the more advanced student be ok with going to the same college? I agree that, if we were in the donut hole and couldn’t afford other options, we would be having her look more closely at honors colleges and be very upfront with her about how her hard work would equal merit at certain schools. I know this attitude exists elsewhere. I have friends all over the country with children at large public schools and the same sort of issues exist.

@homerdog I can totally understand where your kids are coming from. My Class of 2022 (college) kid had similar thoughts, but about CA schools. Would it be fair to call it “prestige hunting”?

@homerdog, I’m very to each their own, but the thing that perhaps sits wrong with people (at least with me) is that a kid should have the high school experience they want to have and not spend the whole time chasing college. If the experience that fulfills them also leads to a top tier school, great. If not, there are so many schools out there educating people and offering them amazing opportunities.

My kids are polar opposites when it comes to school, but I’m hard-pressed to imagine that one would feel negatively about being in the same college as the other. Many roads can lead to the same place. I know that we are talking about teens, but that is a concept they can accept, I think. I like to think D19 worked so hard at schools because she wanted to, because she loved learning
 not to get to some prize at the finish line.

If I understand what you are saying, your kid doesn’t want the same “prize” as the “less academic” kids. That, to me, IS problematic because that isn’t what college acceptances or admissions are. It’s kind of like saying “I will go on an African safari because fewer people do it and it’s really expensive” in spite of the fact that “I love art and history and would probably be happier taking my vacation in Italy”. Because wow, both are great, just not the same!

I’m not disputing that kids can have a hierarchical view of schools and the people at them -your D is far from alone -, but it’s really a limiting world view and one that doesn’t necessarily end. Does it mean that on first meeting of a colleague who attended Iowa, she’ll judge them as less? Or be intimidated by the neighbor from Harvard? There will be superstars at any school as well as slackers. Kids who do the minimum for the B so they have time for other things (and yeah, in the real world, there’s something to be said for this!) . Kids who live in the library.

I fully support your D’s right to eliminate schools willy nilly because there are so many out there that ANY whittling process has value and she has to be happy regardless of whether she can name the decision factors. . But I would talk to her about what she thinks a college acceptance represents to her. And she might want to read the book “Excellent Sheep” to get insight into how a smart kid like she is can get caught in this cycle without realizing how it’s happened and how far astray it can take her from real fulfillment.

I’ve read Excellent Sheep. I know you all are right. And we have talked to her about this. This attitude is widespread at our high school. I shouldn’t have gone down the rabbit hole on this topic here. Just wanted to be fully understood even though I knew it doesn’t look good on her. The only thing I can kind of say in her defense is that her preference for a “better” school doesn’t stem from looking down on kids as much as it comes from a want to be surrounded by academic peers who push her. S19 felt the same way. She experienced his journey and heard when he went to a great class during a college visit. He would tell her how, at certain schools, he was wowed by how engaged and bright the kids were and he loved that. Went to other schools and found class wasn’t quite the same with maybe that big fish/little pond feeling. He preferred the first type of school. She tends to agree. Remember, she’s into the whole small class and community feeling idea so she will be close to her fellow students. And, yes she would find these kids at large school honors programs but she doesn’t like the feel of those campuses. She’s not a snob. Honestly.

But I will keep talking to her about how college is what you make of it and it’s not a prize to win. Of course she needs to fit. She isn’t chasing prestige. If she was, she’s be applying where all of the better students at our school apply - Ivies, Northwestern, Duke, Chicago, etc. Those don’t fit what she wants and, just like our search for S19, we are looking for the best fit for her. Not a school ranked at a certain level in the rankings.

@homerdog you are not going to be rewarded for your honesty.

It used to be a worthy pursuit to strive to achieve. I well remember entering academic competitions solely for the thrill of the battle and to figure out how I measured up against the best of the best. In the day, no one looked down on you for standing on the dais and bowing to receive a medal.

Now it’s a friendlier world and we should all try to achieve as a village and should stand only as a group and a global one at that. Don’t draw attention to your own efforts. Everyone receives a trophy or no one at all.

Guess you didn’t receive the memo.

A college acceptance is not the medal. That’s the point. Achievement is worthy. Needing to be validated by the name on your sweatshirt is not.

I really love @homerdog 's candor and honesty. It is refreshing. And while the willingness to go down this rabbit hole may have temporarily sidelined the thread, it facilitates an important discussion that we all need to have – as parents guiding our kids and with our kids. Because what comes next? We tell our kid who’s graduating from Stanford and who is dying to take that teaching job in a tough neighborhood "But McKinsey would hire you! That’s not as easy or an opportunity to snag! Being an elementary school teacher is so regular. " That kid might be able to make enormous change in the world and more important, wants to!!

This is a real challenge. In the words of Frank Bruni, where you go is not who you are. We can help our kids understand that. Okay. I’m done on this.?

This paragraph explains her feelings well.

My D21 is looking at our two state flagships (IU and Purdue) d/t cost: she is fully covered for in-state and other opportunities such as study abroad. We have also experienced early on that she definitely thrives in a bigger school vs a small, private one and that’s her preference as well. If she wants to attend a private or OOS school, she would need merit and/or some skin in the game.

She’s interested in business (maybe accounting/finance), so IU Kelley is where she’s leaning right now. I am, however, fully aware of the party culture at IU. I’m a Purdue alum and know that it does not have that same party culture (not that kids don’t party there), but it’s also not nearly as strong in business as IU.

Her and her friends are good students who care about their grades, but they have fun too (not partying). If she ends up at IU, I hope she can find her niche of kids who are serious students that can have fun w/o getting caught up in that crazy party atmosphere. It was nice to hear her and her friends talking about this one day, and she shared her concerns with me too.

So, I do understand how @homerdog’s D feels with regards to having similarly-focused peers in college. As long as when she gets out in the work world she doesn’t look down on colleagues who couldn’t afford private schooling or are not as talented as she is. I always tell D, there will always be people smarter than you so, remember, don’t get on that high horse bc karma can be a B.

Wouldn’t the presence of an honors college at a large public university solve the issue of students with different academic abilities / achievements attending the same school ? It should–especially during one’s first year due to honors dorms & honors courses.

@rjm2018 I understand your concerns but your D sounds like she’s got a good head on her shoulders and she will find her people if she goes to Kelley. Yes, there are a lot of partiers there but I’m guessing she can find groups to join within Kelley where she will find like souls. I know sororities are big there and know a few girls who sound just like your D who have joined them. They’ve been good for them - they’ve made school a smaller place and allowed them to gain leadership experience and helped them stay focused on school. Academics is important to the sorority girls I know there and the sororities have been very supportive of that. Of course, Purdue is awesome as well. Our next door neighbor sent both of her boys there and they loved their time, had good luck with internships, and are very gainfully employed!

D21 does not look down on kids who go to public schools. We just visited Wisconsin and she was hoping to like it since she knows a bunch of kids like her who go there or graduated from there. It just wasn’t her cup of tea. Honestly, I think she was disappointed because she knows if she liked big schools, she would have so many more options. And it would most likely cost less as well which doesn’t hurt.

Honors college absolutely helps with finding strong academic peers but OP’s child doesn’t want a big university setting.

@Publisher It’s been discussed already but she just doesn’t like the hustle and bustle of big campuses. Too many cars, busy streets, dorms with 1000 kids. Wants more intimate, more bucolic campus feeling. But, yes, for many kids the honors college/state school does solve the issue of finding like-minded students.

I think, from what was shared earlier, @homerdog’s D does not like the set up of big campuses and how far dorms can be from classes, etc.

A certain vibe and level of achievement appeals to your D, and she has the stats and family support to choose from what should be several excellent options.

My earlier post was a visceral reaction to dismissing certain schools out of hand because they serve a broader population than just high stats kids. And since we’re being candid, maybe it hit too close to home for me: I have one “slacker” kid and was stunned and hurt by the thought that some of his higher-achieving high school classmates couldn’t bear even the idea of setting foot on the same (large) campus as him and students like him.

Some kids who were slackers in high school will turn on the jets in college and have great academic success; others (like mine) will excel in the classes that interest them and do the minimum in the others; others will hew to the “C’s get degrees” philosophy and eke out a diploma. My hope is that their college educations, even if not a “life of the mind” experience, broadens their perspectives, increases their tolerance for those not like them, and develops some useful skills that will launch them into self-supporting adulthood.

I don’t see this as a rabbit hole because it does tie into the OP’s initial question about career services, networking, etc. The alumni networks at large schools can be a big asset, especially in certain areas of the country. Big 10 or Big 12 grads will be sought after by certain companies, especially in the Midwest. But that doesn’t matter if big, busy schools are not the fit your D is looking for, so long as she doesn’t visibly disdain those who chose that path (and who may be seated at the desk next to hers).

My own experience was that those K-12 students “who [didn’t] care about school” did not go to college at all (some barely graduated high school with barely passing D grades in required courses, and some probably dropped out of high school), or went to the community college (for terminal career-focused programs, not as transfer-prep students).

Of course, there were students who were college-bound but not top-end. But the gap between them and a top-end student was much smaller than between top-end students and those “who don’t care about school”. And even a safety or a low match for a top-end student may be a reach for many other college-bound students, so that reduces the number of weaker students there.