<p>My daughter visited Amherst open campus and found very few students that admitted to venturing to Northampton or stated that they took classes there. How common is this? Do Smith students frown upon Amherst students roaming their town or campus? I know she would love to take classes at Smith, join clubs there and basically hang out with the awesome Northampton students. She feels more comfortable at Smith but is torn because Amherst offered far better finAid. She didn't feel a love connection with Amherst, the town or college but feels like it could work if She was able to connect with the Smith students. We heard about the bus and on paper, it looks like a great program but do students really utilize it. I want her to be happy and also financially responsible. Any comments would be greatly appreciated!</p>
<p>I don’t think it would be accurate to say that Smith students frown on Amherst students roaming the town or campus. But Amherst is in a pretty nice town of its own and has its own big campus with lots of excellent programs (it’s ain’t the #1 ranked LAC in the country for nothin’, even if you do share my view that rankings are kind of a bunch of a hooey), so it’s not as if it would be normal for tons of Amherst students to spend tons of time at Smith. Some Smith students do take classes at Amherst (I took one during my time), and vice versa. The bus is simple to use and free, but it’s time consuming. It takes about an hour to get from Smith campus to Amherst campus on the bus, even though the campuses are in reality about 20 min apart (maybe a bit more depending on traffic). The bus goes from Smith, to the Hampshire Mall, to UMASS, to Amherst Town Center, and THEN to Amherst College, so that is why it takes so much longer. Personally, when I took my class at Amherst, I enjoyed taking the bus for the most part. It was a nice period in my day when I could study or veg out without a ton of distractions like Facebook, texting, etc (when I was in college, smartphones were less common). I would get my reading done and listen to music. I didn’t find it that onerous, but it required freeing up some time in my afternoon. </p>
<p>Obviously, as a Smith alum, I’m biased towards Smith. I prefer Northampton over Amherst as a town, and I didn’t find my Amherst class or my classmates particularly more challenging or engaging than my Smith classmates. They were great, but just not such a huge departure that I felt like I was missing out by staying at Smith. But one person’s experience in one class hardly makes a survey. </p>
<p>Every family has to figure out the financial aid thing for themselves. The fact that you’ll probably work harder in a place where you think you will blossom, only goes so far in the face of financial realities. So if Smith isn’t a viable financial option for her, you could: 1) talk to Smith student financial services and see what might be possible. Offers wtih peer schools are often pretty comparable, so the fact that Amherst’s is a lot higher could mean they’re accounting for something Smith isn’t; 2) have her enroll at Amherst and see how it goes. She certainly can make herself whatever Smith-Amherst hybrid experience she wants. It will take some effort, but if she’s committed she’ll go for it. And if she’s really unhappy, she can always consider transferring next year.</p>
<p>At least from the data I saw five years ago, Smith had the largest “in-migration” of the five colleges. Smith’s language departments, in particular, are far more robust than Amherst’s, as is the music department, and quite a few Amherst students have taken courses in at least these two departments. (Though I also need to add that in certain departments, like Italian, when Smithies fill up the classes, the Amherst students can’t get in.)</p>
<p>My d. had the same reaction to Amherst that your d. did. She sat in on a class given by Amherst’s most famous professor (in the law and jurisprudence program) and not a single woman said a word. It made a real impression on her. She ended up not even applying (recruited, applied, and accepted at Williams, but chose Smith instead - financial aid was about the same in our case). I’m sure Amherst is a great place, but, as your d. noted, there is definitely a different vibe. </p>
<p>Talk to the Smith financial aid department - one never knows…</p>
<p>The lightbulb for Smith first clicked on for my D when she was at a party for prospects and one of the-then current students related an experience similar to that of Mini’s D: “You know the women at Amherst have to be smart, otherwise they wouldn’t be there. But they just let the guys completely dominate in the class. That doesn’t happen with Smithies.”</p>
<p>Ah-yup.</p>
<p>Also: as a note. IIRC, Amherst has the least number of students taking classes on the other four campuses. Just a thought</p>
<p>You guys are so Awesome! Thanks for your input! We have considered talking to Smith Fin Aid Dept and the clock is ticking…5 days till decision day. fwiw my D is a biochem major concidering at present Wellesley or Amherst/Smith Hybrid combo. ( love that description Smithieandproud!)</p>
<p>Well, I would hurry if you want to talk to finanacial aid. They’ll probably ask you to make an appointment, so they can get you to talk to someone who is knowledgable about your case, so I would do that ASAP to make sure you have time to get your documentation together, and make sure you have time to get an appointment. Also, they may need you to send them something to document a special circumstance before they can revise the offer, so don’t delay. </p>
<p>Also, read each offer over carefully, so you can identify what’s different between them and try to think about what might be accounting for that. Make sure you have all of your financial documentation at hand when you’re calling the aid office.</p>
<p>Wellesley seems like a good amalgam of Smith and Amherst. It’s a shame if she likes the Smith vibe, better, which I can understand, but I think it a better alternative to matriculating at Amherst and wishing she were at Smith. She won’t get the very special Smith house experience.</p>
<p>If the difference is aid is not that great, perhaps it is better to bite the bullet and go to Smith. If that isn’t possible, for me, I think Wellesley is a better choice than being at Amherst wanting Smith.</p>
<p>FWIW: DD had the same feelings about going to Yale and finding the women differed to the guys in a way a true Barnard woman never would. Not sure about the Columbia women. Maybe there are quick to learn from the Barnard women.</p>
<p>Well, unfortunately Smith can’t “Match” Amherst finaid and will only reevaluate if our financial situation has changed. The finaid counsler was very empathetic but unable to offer additional aid. Perhaps this is the wrong thred to vent on but here goes anyway. There is a
approx $17,000 difference over 4 years to attend Wellesley over Smith/ Amherst. Ultimately its my D’s choice but do I encourage Smith/Amherst because its less expensive(no student loan) or encourage Wellesely? She states she can be happy anywhere, outside of her home town, but admits if money was not an issue she would choose Wellesley.</p>
<p>This is a sticky wicket because it involves money, but faced with a similar situation our D took the loans which we are paying back for her. $17K for one year is an untenable difference. Over 4 years it doesn’t seem so bad to me, but everyone feels differently about money.</p>
<p>If I were setting parameters (and we did), they would go like this: we figure out what we can afford; then we see what it would mean for d. in terms of loans (in our case, subsidized). $23k (which is what the federal government sets as the maximum for subsidized Staffords) is absolute maximum. Should be lower, but beyond that, we wouldn’t agree to co-sign on loans, effectively eliminating schools from consideration. </p>
<p>I notice your d. is a potential biochem major. Is med school theoretically on the horizon? If so, be very, very conservative in spending - both for her and for you. </p>
<p>In defense of Smith’s finaid department, I would note that my wife and I had two life threatening emergencies while our d was there, and in both cases, they increased our aid within 30 days, even before we sent full documentation. </p>
<p>So how much IS the difference between Smith and Amherst, and what would her loan burden in each case be after four years?</p>
<p>@mini- I completely understand Smith’s position on FinAid, and considering ECA, they have been more than generous! And fwiw, Wellesley would not match Amherst either. Amherst is just crazy generous!! The cost for difference between Smith And Amherst, over 4 years would be closer to $21,000/ 4 years and her loan would be that amount minus whatever she could earn during the school year.
@mythmom- I agree that even 20,000 loan over 4 years is doable for her. Its just hard to pass up 0$ for 17-21 thousand. At the same time her happiness and feeling comfortable in her surroundings is paramount. She does not plan on med school but grad school with hope of a life in academia. Thanks so very much for all the comments!!</p>
<p>For those interested in the reality of women’s classroom experiences at Amherst College, it would be wise to query Amherst women or Smithies who have actually taken classes at Amherst. My daughter took numerous classes at Amherst. When earlier today I informed her there are those who believe Amherst men completely dominate the class discussions she responded, “That’s ludicrous. If that was true, no Smithie would go through the hassle to take courses at Amherst.” She made a point of the fact that in her classes Amherst women were as outspoken and argumentative as Smithies. I’m not sure if she meant that as a compliment or not. ;)</p>
<p>My daughter regrets she wasn’t able to take more courses at Amherst because there are a number of amazing professors she enjoyed, and she appreciated the discussions that entailed give and take (read arguments) between the sexes. She also found it educational to hear the views and opinions of men and how differently than women they can interpret the same information. Grading? About equal.</p>
<p>I also discussed the issue with a number of current and former Amherst students and an Amherst professor who is a friend. While none were quite as blunt as my daughter, they nonetheless reiterated the same sentiment. The professor made an interesting observation that if it was true men dominated classroom discussions, it would reflect poorly on the teaching at Amherst and the college in general. And, in his opinion, professing Amherst women are too insecure to regularly and enthusiastically contribute to discussions is insulting. His words, not mine.</p>
<p>Amherst, Williams, Midd, Wesleyan, Dartmouth, Vassar and Yale are examples of just a few cross-admit colleges. There are few who would argue that the women students among the colleges aren’t interchangeable. It isn’t credible to suggest that some of the brightest and most accomplished women in the world would tolerate being subjugated by their male counterparts. I’m very certain my daughter who attends Vassar wouldn’t.</p>
<p>I agree that there is a different feel between Amherst and Smith. A woman will have a different experience rowing on a co-ed vs a women’s team. Neither is ‘better’ than the other. Different ‘strokes’ for different folks.</p>
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<p>We are full-pay parents times two. Even thought one daughter was awarded a significant merit award at a college other than Smith, and the other applied ED to Vassar, we made the decision that the memories of their undergrad experience are for a lifetime and being excited about where they were going to spend four years was imperative. We viewed college as an investment in the future but just as important was the kids’ happiness. We can earn more money to replace what we’ve spent/are spending on our daughters’ educations, but we can’t buy back the unhappiness and/or discontentment had the girls attended the wrong college.</p>
<p>“We can earn more money to replace what we’ve spent/are spending on our daughters’ educations, but we can’t buy back the unhappiness and/or discontentment had the girls attended the wrong college.”</p>
<p>Crewdad- I like your above statement. But if you posted that on the fin aid forum, you’d probably set off a whirlwind of hot-headed arguments. But as much as I do like what you said, for some people who don’t have the ability to “earn more money,” especially in this economy, thousands and thousands of dollars do make a big difference. Candlewax’s D is lucky though to have the option/choice of going to several fantastic schools with the most affordable also being and amazing college.</p>
<p>Thanks crewdad, my d is not the type to be intimidated by individuals that stand up to urinate. We believe people are people. Some outspoken, argumentative, engaging, quiet or introverted. I would imagine the stereotypes of male dominated classrooms are not the case in today’s university classrooms across the country or at least in Mass. That is why she applied there. Perhaps I’m idealogic.
Her dilemma really comes down to “feel”. And having a scientific/reasoning mind she has a hard time giving “Feel” much weight. Yes, she can always transfer if she is unhappy but she is the kind of kid that would just make it work. Yikes! I’m going crazy, I can only imagine how she feels. I’m advocating which ever school she chooses but as I’m sure you all know, its difficult watching your children make such big decisions! Again, than you for the input!</p>
<p>CrewDad - I’m sorry, but I can only comment on my d’s experience. It made a very strong impression. (I could comment on the relative experience of women at my alma mater - but that would take the thread in a different direction). What I can say, generally speaking about campus cultural climates (and having nothing in particular to do with either LACS or these LACs) which I work on as part of my professional work (alcohol/drugs/violence/mental health), is that on the whole, white males and athletes often set the general tone as campus “leaders”. This is often where the “tone” of things comes from. One could like it or not - as you say, “different strokes for different folks”. The students ARE close to being interchangeable - the campus cultures are not! That’s why they don’t look or feel all the same.</p>
<p>As for the finaid, well, at $20k or under, I think the OP can safely let her/his daughter decide. It won’t break the bank or put her in jeopardy (in my opinion).</p>
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<p>That was the point of my post. A prospective student’s opinion of one class is not sufficient to judge the temperament of Amherst women or if they allow men to dominate the classroom, hence I suggested it would behoove anyone interested in the facts to query actual Amherst students or Smithies who have attended classes (plural) at Amherst.
Nor should a prospective student condemn an entire student population because of the actions of one.</p>
<p>Perhaps by relaying an incident that happened a number of years ago, I can help you grasp why I believe it’s disingenuous to cast aspersions on a college after a student attended one class they found unsatisfactory or had one negative experience.</p>
<p>The daughter of an acquaintance of mine had an overnight at Smith. It was a disaster! Long Story. Would you have appreciated it if the father of the woman posted on the Amherst, or any board, negative and erroneous comments about Smith women because of one bad host?</p>
<p>Willing to be open-minded, the woman returned for another overnight and stayed with a host who lived in different area of campus. Her second overnight was the polar opposite of the first. She graduated from Smith with Latin Honors. </p>
<p>Mini, your job is to compile data and then make reasonable assumptions based on sufficient information. I’m suggesting no less be done by individuals interested in the classroom dynamics at Amherst or any college.</p>
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<p>So? Are you implying that because white males or scholar/athletes are or can be leaders that they, or by their influence, create an atmosphere in which women are dominated in the classroom and the women allow it? Were I a woman, I’d be insulted and incensed if it was suggested a male or jock could have that much influence on my behavior. Also, you acknowledge your data has nothing to do with Amherst. Mini dear, we’re discussing Amherst, so what’s the point of mentioning the perceived “tone” at some unknown college? </p>
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<p>I never implied campus cultures are the same. What I am implying is that the smart, accomplished woman who are attending Amherst are no different from those at Midd, Wesleyan, Williams, Bowdoin, Yale, Smith, et cetera, and I can’t imagine women at any of the aforementioned colleges demurely submitting to the xy chromosome.</p>
<p>mini, if that professor is who I think it is, he does not want anyone to contribute, male or female, unless they concur wholeheartedly with his political philosophy. My son took a class with him and although usually quite self confident was exasperated at the professor’s refusal to accept opposing viewpoints. Other students – again, male and female – would approach my son after class and say that they admired my son’s bravery in persisting in arguing with the great man.</p>