<p>This year in particular I keep hearing about kids getting into their dream school, but having to turn it down because of finances. This happens in all areas of course, very often with the Ivys, not just in the theatre world.
On this thread and the Musical Theatre thread, I read about kids getting into Carnegie Mellon, Michigan, NYU, Northwestern, Syracuse, etc. and having to say no because they weren't given enough financial aid.
This must be heartbreaking. Absolutely heartbreaking for the whole family.
So I wonder, for the knowledge of future applicants, is it worth it? Would you have rather not applied to these overpriced schools, or is "getting in" satisfaction enough?</p>
<p>Thankfully, I was knowledgeable about the financial aid policies at those schools ahead of time and counseled my daughter as such. I told her I would allow her to apply to her dream schools but we would need a “merit miracle” to make it happen. When she got in to Northwestern and NYU, it was validating but not heartbreaking when we realized it was out of the realm of possibility. </p>
<p>We did make an appointment with Northwestern to try to understand how they determined that we can afford $60K/year and and it was quite unpleasant. (They implied that we were hiding assets and fudged the FAFSA which could not be further from the truth.)</p>
<p>The only other annoying situation was when her music teacher told my daughter, “Well, when you get into Northwestern, you go to Northwestern. You just make it happen.” Here is the truth: NU’s yield is 43%, which means that 57% of those accepted wind up elsewhere.</p>
<p>In the end, my daughter felt “wanted” at the schools where they awarded her hard work with merit/talent aid and where she could springboard into her future career without being bogged down with debt.</p>
<p>I highly recommend to parents that they do their research on financial aid, temper their child’s expectations, and include on their audition list schools that they know they can afford. Remember, too, that although Rutgers and Minnesota offer affordable BAs, your student may not be interested in attending a school where they auditioned for the BFA but were not accepted. Instead, include non-audition schools that offer a PERFORMANCE BA rather than a liberal arts BA, such as Temple.</p>
<p>I believe you have to try because you never know what will happen. Sometimes enough money is offered, sometimes not. I know there’s supposed to be a formula but many times that doesn’t appear to be the case. It’s just wise to go in, as skewlcounselor did, with your eyes open to the likelihood of not being offered enough money.</p>
<p>WOW Skew… that is insane about NU!!! I can’t believe the nerve of some of these schools. and trust me, I had my rude awakening last year in regards to FA practices at different schools, and it was not pretty. My kids also know the family " college budget" and mantra that they will have very little or better yet, not debt, after college graduation. My DS12 is going to a private school that cost us under $10,000 a year. We gave him a little higher budget than that, but he took the money and ran. I truly hope that in the near future, these colleges will get bit in the butt and the tide will start turning,a s more people are waking up and questioning what they are really getting for their money. I just can’t believe the prices can keep rising at such an insane rate for much longer. When does it stop, after it’s $100,000 a year???</p>
<p>But I agree… go ahead and try… as my DS12 got such a wide range of offers, there is no predicting it.</p>
<p>I am of a different point of view. We looked at tuition before choosing the list and avoided the programs that we could not afford. We knew we would not qualify for FA, and did not want to put anyone in debt (us or our children) so that was one of the items we looked at when making the list. Yes, that means that my son did not audition for some top programs but am comfortable with his list and he had some wonderful options in the end. He is not a top student (always put theatre before grades) so he knew his options were going to be limited. That being said, he got merit and talent scholarships from all the programs where he was accepted.</p>
<p>Great topic for a thread!</p>
<p>Our DD, junior, is putting together her list of schools, and financial considerations are front and center. We will most likely not qualify for FA (we’ve been diligent and saved for our children’s education for many years), but also are not comfortable with the idea of paying $60,000+ a year (and who knows, maybe top prices of $70,000+ by the time she graduates!) for an undergraduate degree.</p>
<p>We also do not want her to graduate with a heavy debt load, and are not willing to take on college debt for ourselves, either. (We have to plan for college funds for other children, as well as for retirement since we are older parents, and retirement is not that far away!)</p>
<p>DD is a great student with great test scores, and she should be competitive for good merit scholarships at some great schools. But like photomom5, I think some top schools (Northwestern, Univ of Michigan, NYU for example) will not be on her list - mainly because even if she did gain admittance, the chance of her receiving any aid would be slim to none.</p>
<p>I do not believe that there is such a thing as “THE one perfect school” for any student. I think there are some schools that provide a better fit than others, and certainly some schools that are not a fit at all. But I think a student’s college experience is shaped by many things, including what the student puts into their college experience.</p>
<p>So much of this comes down to emotion - I know we all want the “best” for our children (however we each define that), and it’s hard to say “no” to the opportunity of attending a fantastic (although crazy-expensive) school. But I hope that the lesson our DD will learn is that all of life involves cost-benefit analysis and compromise. Choosing a college is one of the first really big life-decisions she will have the opportunity to make, and there are so many factors that will go into that decision.</p>
<p>For NU and NYU, just throw away the concept for EFC. Ours was completely ignored.</p>
<p>I am really shocked and saddened by your experience with NU. My brother went there and got really excellent financial aid (this was in the 1980s). And even if they didn’t have the money to help you, there is no need to question your integrity. The college process seems to have gotten really ugly in a lot of ways. </p>
<p>But regarding the original question: I do think there is some value in knowing whether you are good enough for a top school, even if it turns out you can’t attend.</p>
<p>This is a great topic. I told my kids from the get go that they had two hurdles: 1. Getting in. 2. Affording it. My older daughter had to turn down her dream school, RISD, because they would not give her any grants; it was 'congratulations, now you can borrow $55K/year!" That was the year my EFC was 0.</p>
<p>That said, I would NEVER not apply to a college if they have a decent endowment and a record of giving grants to students, even if it turns out you don’t get those grants. You simply cannot anticipate what they will offer. A lot of aid is both need AND merit. That is, if the school wants you a lot, they will sweeten the deal. You can’t know that in advance. Obviously, RISD didn’t want my D that much. This was another factor in making it easier for her to say no. </p>
<p>I have to say, since Northwestern and NYU were brought up specifically, that both schools offered my kids very generous need based grants. Northwestern is costing us less than in-state. I am absolutely NOT disrespecting Skewl’s awful experience–my point is that this whole process is EXTREMELY unpredictable. You just cannot know how much the school will want you and how much they will offer you. This doesn’t necessarily have to do with talent at all. It could be numbers–say you are a Merit Scholar. They might want you for their stats. This is just one example.</p>
<p>Over the years, our strategy has been to apply to a lot of schools and to research which ones have money and a record for giving generous aid. We deliberately did not apply to several BFA programs because after looking at their stats, it was obvious they were not able to give generous non-debt aid. Even with this strategy, my kids have gotten into schools that have turned around and not given any aid at all. It’s sort of luck, and you do maximize your chances by applying to a fair number of schools.</p>
<p>Finally, I agree that you should also do performance based BA’s if the price is right and to maximize your chances.</p>
<p>And yes, I think it’s a good feeling to know you were accepted at a top school but couldn’t go. It’s validating, and heaven knows you need validation in this field!</p>
<p>We were very aware of the financial picture at each school when my D came up with her list ( thanks to CC). Our D knew that she would only be able to attend if she received adequate money as we would not go into debt. Keeping this in mind, she included financial safeties on her list. We did not limit her choices but made sure she knew our limitations. Fortunately her top choice in the end came through with flying colors with a talent scholarship. I would not limit applications to those schools that are known to have good FA-if we had done that, she would not have applied to this school as it was not known for being generous.</p>
<p>Heartbreaking is an exaggeration and over statement, but heck this is the theatre and drama crowd right? Yes, it hurts when you go through all the hurdles, get your prize and the price is unaffordable. It’s an issue a lot of students are facing in the college admissions process.</p>
<p>Northwester University guarantees to and does meet full need, but it does not use the FAFSA EFC but generated one from PROFILE. It’s not easy to do better than NWU in terms of financial aid packages most of the time. NYU, now also using PROFILE, makes no such guarantee, and statistically gaps quite a bit. When you are looking at schools with high price tags, figuring out how to pay for them is also a big issue. In this field, you don’t want loans over your head.</p>
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<p>Even schools who “meet full need” offer different amounts (I know; I have four kids who have been accepted to a total of, how many? I’ve lost count) schools. The packages are different, even from full-need schools. Also, these calculations don’t take into account, for example, debt accrued from loans taken out to educate older children who have since graduated. Only you can determine what you can afford. Of course, you can appeal awards and give fuller explanations of your financial situation. Most schools will expect students and families to take on considerable debt… and why shouldn’t they? Most other things you purchase (a car, a house, a bag of mulch) won’t be automatically discounted in proportion to your financial situation. If the school is too expensive, you can look look elsewhere.</p>
<p>The problem with the above paragraph, of course, is that the price of the school is not revealed until after acceptance. So, the best strategy is to cast a wide net.</p>
<p>I also noticed this year that more people had to turn schools down due to paltry financial aid packages while the tuition/room & board at some schools continues to climb. Saying “thanks but no thanks” to CMU or NYU might be difficult, but I think it is going to become more common. I for one think we are already seeing a broadening in the landscape of good acting and MT programs. We are seeing more legit and reasonably priced options than ever. Within five years, there will be far more parity among the programs. I say CMU or NU’s loss is another schools gain. Also, if the only kids who can actually go to these high cost schools are affluent kids and kids with a great deal of financial need, it isn’t the best thing for those programs.</p>
<p>Agree 100% with glassharmonica, and the financial aid picture has changed not just in the last ten years but in the last YEAR. I thought it was just my own experience until I spoke with my colleagues in our school’s college counseling office–they confirmed that kids’ FA offers were absolutely all over the map this year. My son’s results were typical: only one school met full FAFSA-based need with “normal” need-based aid; one school (which he’s attending) gave the equivalent in merit aid but no need-based aid other than loans, making it affordable and guaranteed for 4 years; one school gave some need-based aid but gapped us $17K; and a couple gave merit aid that put a dent in things but didn’t meet need, nor did they give any need-based aid at all. This is in comparison to my two older kids, who received equivalent packages from every private school that accepted them in 2003 and 2008.</p>
<p>Our counseling director said our results were typical for most of our families at school this year, and she thinks it’s a result of the ongoing U.S. economic situation, which echoes what I’ve been reading in places like the Chronicle of Higher Ed and the NYT. Many schools that have promised to “meet full need” in the past are no longer doing so, either because of a change in policy or because of inadequate funds.</p>
<p>Although I’m a strong proponent of casting the proverbial wide net and strategizing for FA, it seems that as of now, if you KNOW a school is WAY out of your price range and that they aren’t likely to meet your full need, you probably shouldn’t apply unless your kid is very interested in giving it a shot, knowing they might not be able to attend but wanting to see whether they can get in–just to know where they stand. You still never know what might be offered, but you DO know what your kid is like, and it’s obviously really crucial to be clear with them about whether or not they can attend a specific school without substantial financial aid. </p>
<p>Sorry that was so long…but it’s a big deal and an important question!</p>
<p>It seems to me the FA packages are just like the auditions-no real rhyme or reason to each one. Like others have posted I allowed my D to apply to a wide variety. I found that OOS gave way better packages then in state schools. When I first started looking I was surprised to see on some websites that if you meet X criteria and are instate you get this amount and OOS you get that amount. Also at some schools my EFC was met and others not even close. </p>
<p>We did run across one thing at Unifieds I wish I had checked into better. If you do a walkin and FA is of concern for that school-make sure you look them up before auditions because at some schools if you do not apply before a certain date you are not put in the pool for any merit money and the FA is all gone buy the time it gets to you. The best thing you can do is go in with your eyes wide open and make the best list you can.</p>
<p>Definitely better to have loved and lost! </p>
<p>My daughter applied to Michigan, NYU-Tisch ( Atlantic), Muhlenberg, American, University of Richmond, Point Park, Virginia Commonwealth, Elon, Northwestern, William & Mary, James Madison, and UVA as a combination of BFA Acting and BA Theatre programs both in-state and out of state safeties and reaches. She was accepted everywhere but UVA and Northwestern. She got Honors Fellow at Elon but wasn’t accepted to the BFA program. Doing the auditions at Unifieds and at the schools was such a growth experience for her and she really matured as a person and a performer through the whole audition process. Getting into Michigan BFA acting was the highlight of her senior year, and validated for her that she could compete in the bigger world. Michigan gave her a Leaders and the Best Award for being one the 15 top applicants of the 2000 applicants to the School of Music Theatre and Dance. Unfortunately, the award carried no $, it just offered lunch with the dean. The price tag was just more than we could stretch and we don’t want to take loans. NYU was even more out of the price range.</p>
<p>But along the way she discovered that she really loved the program at University of Richmond. It’s a very small, personal BA program in a LAC. It has the academics she wants, the theatre training is good, there’s a lot of personal attention, and there are opportunities to study abroad and/or work with local theatres. She loves the people who run the program. She auditioned twice for them for scholarships, and was awarded an Artist scholarship-- a full ride for 4 years. We’ve told her she can use the tuition savings for summer study in NYC, study abroad or grad school. Without the experience at Unifieds and other auditions she wouldn’t have been as polished an auditioner and might not have this opportunity. Knowing that she was able to be successful at the auditioning process has also strengthened her resolve to forge her path in the theatre world.</p>
<p>I’m a firm believer that :You can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, well you just might find, you get what you need.</p>
<p>Absolutely LOVE, LOVE your post VAmom!!! Interesting about University of Richmond’s BA theater program… I am going on their website asap to check it out for my S.</p>
<p>VAMom, great post, great story. Big congrats to your daughter.</p>
<p>I love this story too, and was not aware about U of R having a good theater program–very helpful to know for us Virginia parents and teachers!</p>
<p>VAmom, I also loved your story and totally relate. I tried to dissuade my D from auditioning at some schools that I knew we couldn’t manage financially (CMU and U of Michigan), but she insisted and reminded me that we didn’t know what scholarships might be offered. It’s true, you can do your research and try to figure out what a school typically gives, but there’s no sure way to know other than going for it. </p>
<p>And I didn’t want her to always wonder, “Could I have gotten in?” She didn’t get in to CMU or Juilliard, but she was accepted to U of Michigan BFA acting, along with her other acceptances, and I think it really helped validate her talent (since she thought of it as more difficult to get into/more applicants). </p>
<p>She also says that the audition process was incredibly important to her in terms of growth and confidence, and I’m not so sure she would have felt quite the same way if she hadn’t gone for those schools that seemed too far out of reach either financially or competitive-wise. She said it really was the most challenging process she’s ever experienced, and she did it. And I think she’s proud of herself!</p>
<p>I’ve, personally, second-guessed this a bit because I wonder if she should have replaced those schools that were such far-reaches in both ways with those she might possibly have been accepted to (we could then have afforded the fees and scheduled the time for auditions, etc), but in the end, she didn’t get into her first choice any way (DePaul), but she got into her second choice (U of M/Guthrie). Here she is going to the one school that didn’t require a flight, a hotel, or time off from anything to apply! So, can we regret the mucho money spent traveling to Unifieds and schools and outrageous application and audition fees (for CMU/Juilliard)? I don’t think so. Each piece of the puzzle has been important. Even having to say no to U of Michigan without so much as visiting because it was beyond our finances was an important part of the puzzle. She had the whole picture (completed puzzle) to view in the end, to see this piece and that piece. </p>
<p>For those of you whose kids didn’t audition for the far-reach or financially oppressing schools–that’s awesome, too. There are excellent reasons for both choices. </p>
<p>I loved your Beatles quote, VAmom!</p>