Several contributors here on CC have children both at Yale and elsewhere, in some cases by choice (i.e. one child turned down Yale to go elsewhere). I have noticed some large flagships offer some intimate and unique opportunities in their honors programs, such as University of Ohio’s Honors Tutorial College. I have noticed that Princeton, U Penn, MIT, etc. also have evolved unique experience programs to try to break down the monolithic experience (especially lower-division) of entering with 1000 – 1500 other freshmen, and accommodate myriad learning styles. I find seeking out this information to be less-than-straightforward.
Is there a program, or cluster of programs, that you especially like at Yale that creates a more intimate academic experience- towards what some imagine as the Small LAC experience of student-focused small classroom discussion-based learning, in the lower division classes? Also, for those with multiple children, only one of whom is at Yale, what are the benefits of Yale? Conversely, why did your child eschew Yale? What were the criteria? Did they hold up in practice?
There must be posters with a more direct response to your question, but let me approach this obliquely because that’s all I’ve got. DS went to a HS with a graduating class of 100, which made for an intimate experience. The only time he has complained about the “non-intimate” scale of Yale was with an Intro Psych class, which he reckons nearly half of the freshmen take. That said, he and the professor have established communications, and he might do research with him. His other classes are much smaller – well, Math 230 started out without enough seats, but that was fixed by the middle of the semester :).
What you’re describing probably occurs most often in the writing-intensive courses. DS took Crime and Punishment (PoliSci) as a Writing course, and the close work with a (IMO) brilliant TA who reviewed the first draft of each paper and graded/commented on the final paper was gratifying for this parent to see. DS, not a bad writer at the outset, was a much more mature and capable writer at the end of the semester. The comments (which DS was kind enough to email me) were incisive, clearly indicated care in preparing, and showed an expectation that my son would work to a high standard.
Great insights, @IxnayBob. Thank you. My DD is used to a dozen per class, and will have a small graduating class as well. There is always an issue with those required General Ed classes. Having smaller sections with excellent TA’s is one approach. Does Yale have a model for some of these impacted classes that is more a discussion group, rather than lecture-recitation? Maybe an option that freshmen could opt for? Does anyone else have insight on this?
My son didn’t go the Directed Studies route, but perhaps your daughter might be interested. Can you tell us more about her? http://directedstudies.yale.edu/
@IxnayBob, yes, that is the sort of program I can’t seem to stumble across on my own. My DD is the most awesome HS Sophomore on this planet. What more would you like to know?
Seriously- what more? She has been following biochemistry and computational biology types of interests, though she would really excel at international relations or Econ as well. She is a work in progress. She rows crew. She is of a caliber in grades and ECs that I believe she could reasonably apply to Yale. She needs the breadth to explore, and the depth to be able to carry her interest where it leads her. She is well spoken and thinks well on her feet. She is extremely sharp. She is not challenged in every setting. She likes to be engaged, not passively noting facts in a large lecture hall.
I am probably over generalizing based on my experience with my son, but I would be wary of thinking too much of what college would fit a child when they’re still a sophomore in HS. Even as a beginning junior, DS taught that his targets would be MIT, CalTech, etc. It wasn’t until his summer as a rising senior that he realized he wanted a broader school like Yale.
She sounds engaged, which is half of the battle with smart kids.
Mine also went to a small hs 90 graduating class but I never heard any complaints about class size. She particularly was proud of the CS dept TA system which she was a part of in upper div. They also offer computational biology, and Center for Computational Molecular Biology.fyi http://cs.brown.edu/degrees/undergrad/concentrations/cs-bi_reqs/
@IxnayBob, oops, my mistake, she is a Junior. I guess I still want to keep her younger! She is very busy, so I am trying to help by compiling a list of discriminants she may otherwise overlook. I know for myself, my DS (in college), and what I see here on these boards; much was overlooked, and whatever my prejudices and splash-page marketing on the part of schools ended up taking a too-large seat in the decision process.
@BrownParent, thank you for that link. These seem somewhat like Honors Seminars at UCLA or U Toronto. Is that right? Is there any sort of track for students to satisfy course credit in a cohort with more of a seminar style? Did your child find that the classes were all sort of <40 students, or just that the 500 student lectures followed by smaller recitation sections worked out alright?
Is there any special-ness to the close affiliation with Brown’s neighbor, RISD? Also, I am very curious about your decision process with your child with regards to Claremont Colleges. Were there any particular benefits to Claremonts in these small seminar class types of areas? I am not even sure how to discriminate between the Claremonts, really, except Harvey Mudd (S&T) and Scripps (single-gender).
Thank you @gibby. I was wondering if there were a way around those >100 student courses (like Derected Studies may be). Thank you for the link.
Since there are fewer than 40 courses required for the core at Yale, it could be that all core courses are massive, and even some within the major. Hard to tell without some on-the-ground anecdotes.
How has your child found the class sizes? Did your child do Directed Studies? Any opinions are welcome! How about Harvard? What are the relative experiences vis-a-vis class size?
@ElMiminio, I see I referenced incorrectly. I meant to say Ohio University, founded in 1804 and home to the Bobcats. Why? Are you familiar with the school?
There are no General Education requirements at Yale, distribution requirements that are extremely easy to meet. The large classes at the lower levels are just because a lot of students take them, not that they are required. The only required classes at Yale are those that are required for your major. As you get further along, the class size drops considerably. My D only had one large class her first semester freshman year and that was a biology class. Her literature classes are relatively small, but that may just be the nature of her interest.
For example, students have to take 2 quantitative classes. Now IxnayBob’s S is a math wiz and is taking a high level math class - a killer one at that. My D, who is a literature major, is taking a class called Geometry in Nature. It only has 18 students and the pre-requisite for it was that you had not taken calculus in high school. Right down her alley.
Directed Studies is a great program. My D toyed with applying to it but the restrictive nature of the curriculum eventually made her decide not too. She wanted to experience a wider variety of classes her first year. This has been around since before I was at Yale in the 70’s. Most people I know who went through it enjoyed it immensely though it is really, really intense.
@ItsJustSchool I was born a Buckeye! But I’m afraid that my experience with OU is too old, and too remote to be of any value. Anything I could say has lost its relevance due to time and distance.
Sorry!
Thanks @ElMimino. I was not singling out Ohio University, just using it as an example of the kinds of “hidden opportunities” I am trying to understand within the choices. In the case of OU, I am intrigued by the tiny (200+ students) Honors Tutorial College. I am trying to find where these hidden programs are, whether in elite Ivy League schools with pots of resources due to their endowments (such as Yale’s Directed Studies program, apparently), or due to resources from a broad base being concentrated on an elite cohort (such as OU’s HTC, apparently). My DD is an intense scholar, and I think she learns best in a small, fast-moving group, rather than in a larger “Army”. I realize that by Junior year in college, she can find smaller classes anywhere. I am looking at alternative paths for her Frosh/Soph year as potential discriminants.
I have much to learn! I guess I am trying to help “curate” programs and give my interpretation of pros and cons so she can further investigate on her own. Kind of like a movie critic, perhaps.
I think I am confined mostly to this country because of a combination of language and cost.
If Directed Studies sounds interesting, here’s a thought from left field: St. John’s of Annapolis. I briefly dated a young woman who had recently graduated, and spent time with her (obviously) and some of her fellow graduates. They were as sharp and intellectual a group as I had ever met (okay, so she had a moment of weakness in deciding to date me). This was some 40 years ago, but I hear that they’ve held to their principles of using primary sources and discussing in small intimate groups, each year using the same books. I used to kid her that she was perfectly prepared for life in the 19th century.
@IxnayBob, I think you captured the good and the bad of St. John’s in your posting. It is on her list, but frankly between their average SAT’s and DD’s potential other options, I am not sure they will make the final cut. I am seeing other options, such as Directed Studies, that may give the same experience with a better possibilities upon graduation. Yes, they are on the RADAR. Thanks for mentioning! DD likes the idea of Santa Fe, but I understand the Annapolis campus may be intellectually stronger.
Yale’s residential college system provides some of the intimate atmosphere that smaller institutions can provide. Also, there are many, many small classes that students can take, and most of them do find themselves taking many of them. But I would like to say one thing–some of my very best courses at Yale (and some of my kids’, as well) were large lecture classes taught by inspirational, fantastic teachers. You really can get the best of both worlds, as long as you are judicious in choosing courses.
Also, a comment about Directed Studies: it’s a great program, for kids who are interested in that kind of intensive program. But you don’t have to be in DS to “win” Yale, or to be viewed as one of the really smart kids. I, personally, don’t think it would make sense to take it just because you want small classes. You can have plenty of small classes, even as a freshman, without taking DS. Only take DS if the actual material excites you.
ItsJustSchool: My specific Yale experience is way too moldy and stale to be of any use to your daughter, but I want to comment a bit on your implied premise that small seminars are good and large lectures bad. I had a mix of both in college – much more the former than the latter – and some of the very best courses were the large ones. While I was at Yale, the single largest class in the college was Vin Scully’s History of Art survey, and in addition to its high official headcount every lecture was packed to the rafters with people who weren’t even taking it for credit. Scully was practically unmatched as a lecturer. There was a fine system of small-section discussion groups led by able grad students who were interesting on their own terms. No one, but no one, felt that he or she got less than a wonderful academic experience from that course. I had similar feelings about Arthur Galston’s Bio for Poets, Leonard Thompson’s History of South Africa, Harold Bloom’s lecture series about English Romantics and literary theory, Victor Brombert’s 19th Century French Novel, and many others felt similarly about Jonathan Spence’s Chinese history lectures, Donald Kagan’s Peloponnesian Wars, and Gaddis Smith’s American Diplomacy. People talked about those classes all over the college. Their very size was an important part of creating a real academic community at Yale.
I had excellent small seminars, too, in and out of the Directed Studies program (and a couple of duds as well), and even some one-on-one tutorials. Some were with world-famous faculty, and some were with then-unknown grad students or newly-minted assistant professors . . . and their quality did not necessarily correlate with the academic reputation of the teacher to that date. (Their quality correlated much better with future academic reputation.)
Thank you @Hunt! Good point about Directed Studies as needing to stand on its own merits. Also, I understand that the residential colleges are a great thing. I just do not understand how they translate to the academic experience. My DD is accustomed to being in very small seminar-type classes, and so I am looking to see how that experience can continue or be morphed during her college years.
@JHS, thank you for the detailed reply! I do understand and emphatically agree with many of your points. I especially agree that it is exciting to work with someone while, not after, they are developing their reputation. I am trying to put together an understanding of the various schools. Since my DD is accustomed to small seminar-type classes, I want to find an element of that to address her possible fear/hesitation. Once she has made a decision to attend a school (assuming they will accept her, of course, which is a BIG assumption), she will find the benefits of other models.
It is refreshing to see that it all works- even the larger lectures; and that Yale is able to make all their classes useful and relevant. One hears to often of “having to get through” some breadth classes. It is refreshing to hear that at Yale, it may not be the case.
