Big fish in a small pond or .....

my child is a hard working child , who eventually wants to become a physician, right now she has two choices to go into two different high schools
First school is the second best public school in Houston ( Debakey) , which attracts students who eventually want to go into medicine , its every competitive, kids are sleeping at 2am in 11/12 grade each night to maintain their GPA and get good scores.
The second is a public IB school ( Lamar) with a diverse city population and average education and teaching , where its a lot easier to come in the top 5% getting adequate sleep at night , the students really have to be self motivated to do well in this school .
Comparing both scenario with the final goal being entering into a " good college" and “eventually medical school”, which is better pathway ----
A. getting a good education , but really busting themselves to stay in top 5%- 10 % in an academically challenged school or
B. going to a not so good school ( supplementing the education via private tutors /doing SAT prep etc ) and being a lot easier to stay in top 5%
really will appreciate the feedback !!!

What sciences does the IB school offer? Would they be able to take biology, chemistry, AND physics, and advanced classes (IB or AP) for at least biology?

Somehow I doubt an IB HS is average. Remember to let your child have a good childhood as well as getting a good education. Physician here. No one needs to get into an elite college to get into medical school. Do not make the mistake of having your child constantly push herself at the expense of enjoying her life now. Who knows- she may change her mind about becoming a physician- something she may not decide until well into her college years. She needs to get a good knowledge base/foundation and study habits in HS. She’ll want to participate in any extracurriculars that interest her. All of this can be done at many HS’s.

Why would you need private tutors for test prep at all? I’m assuming your child is a good student and will learn enough to do well with most HS curriculums. Look at admissions criteria for your state universities. Not all students can go to the schools you list and there will be many top students getting into your top state U’s.

Which school most appeals to your D? Perhaps the school you are districted for is at least average and can achieve the same goals. What would you do if you lived in a different city without those schools? Your D could still qualify for some great colleges and become a physician if she desired. In other words, relax. Above all, do not cheat your D of a good HS experience. Some thrive on competition and others need to enjoy working hard without added pressure.

Whenever IB courses are discussed here, it is almost always mentioned that the workload is very high (whether the extra workload is beneficial in terms of what is learned is somewhat more controversial).

What kind of AP and IB scores do students at each high school earn after completing the relevant AP and IB courses? That may indicate something about the quality of education. http://www.houstonisd.org/site/default.aspx?PageType=14&DomainID=8269&PageID=38527&ModuleInstanceID=73138&ViewID=1e008a8a-8e8a-4ca0-9472-a8f4a723a4a7&IsMoreExpandedView=True has some AP reports; the district wide performance is not so good. See figure 5 of the final 2014 report, which shows that A students in AP courses had AP scores all over the range, while students earning B and lower grades in AP courses most commonly scored 1.

As you are in Texas, it is understandable that you are concerned about class rank and cutthroat competition, due to the rank-based admission practices of Texas public universities. Of course, the presumably-in-middle-school kid’s dreams of becoming a physician could easily change over four years of high school and then college (but if she does go that path, Texas public medical schools are less expensive than most).

The IB school in our district was very ‘average’ for the area, and ranked no higher than 4th out of 6 high schools in our district. The other offerings of the school did not attract my kids at all. Where I live now, the IB programs are never in the top school in the district, usually in one of the less desirable schools where the district is trying to attract students to attend.

Look at what else the IB school offers. Band, theater, clubs your daughter would be interested in? If she leaves the IB program, does the school offer other classes for her? At the program my daughter looked at, IB was only for those in the program. They had their own section of the school and IB student did not take classes with non-IB students. At all. They weren’t allowed to take AP classes instead of IB. If my daughter had dropped out of IB, she would have had to transfer schools because the rest of the school was awful and dangerous.

There are two questions to ponder here. Should one tailor a college strategy around a 15 or 16 year-old’s stated desire to become an MD. He or she (I’ll use she to reduce verbiage) may have no idea what she really wants but has heard that being a doctor is a great job. She may discover that she hates blood or come to think that being a doctor is sort of like being a glorified car mechanic. Or she may blow out of organic chemistry. Or she may end up loving both the idea or practice of medicine. She should recognize that what doctors do in 15 years may well be quite different than what they are doing now (and, that over time, medical schools may produce too many doctors as cost-cutting leads to a replacement of many doctors functions by PAs, NPs and other specialized personnel).

But, let’s assume she loves the idea of being a doc for intrinsic reasons. The, med schools give greatest weight to GPA and board scores. At a less competitive college, absolutely top grades would be essential. But one would need top standardized tests to validate the grades. So, if your kid does extremely well on standardized tests, it will probably be easier for her to get into med school from an easier school because it will be easier to get top grades at an easier school.

always be the big fish if you can

First, this question is a little extreme. I wouldn’t make huge decisions based on a sophomore in high school’s career choice- I wanted to be a lawyer (???), and am now a happy finance major.

Second, considering colleges always stress that they will compare you within context of your HS and not the applicant pool in general, I’d say big fish in small pond. You will get credit for doing the most within your reach without burning yourself out before you even get to undergrad.

A few things about IB:

It’s implemented differently in different schools and school districts. In part, this reflects the fact that most schools cannot afford to offer the full variety of courses that are theoretically part of the IB program. It may also reflect that fact that the students have to meet state graduation requirements as well as IB Diploma requirements, and the program has to be implemented in a way that makes that possible.

IB is also implemented more successfully in some places than others. A new IB program or one in which many of the students are underqualified may have few kids completing the IB diploma. You may want to ask about the IB diploma completion rate in the program your child is considering.

Since your child is interested in the possibility of becoming a physician, she should take biology, chemistry, and physics in high school because she will have to take courses in these subjects in college, and it’s more difficult to take them if you have no advance preparation. Strange as it may seem, IB students do not necessarily take all three of these sciences. It would be a good idea to see whether your daughter’s high school schedule could be arranged in a way that would allow her to take all three – either in 9th or 10th grade (when should would not yet officially be an IB student) or as part of the IB program in 11th or 12th grade.

yes , I checked you can take IB biology and other courses, you can also test for both AP n IB courses

You’re looking at this the wrong way. The choice isn’t between “great school where she competes to stay in the top 5%” and “average school where she will easily be in the top 5%.” It’s really between thriving and not thriving. You know your child well enough to figure out what her best fit is.

I am not a fan of high-prestige, super competitive high schools for any child, but especially not for gifted/advanced students. At most of these schools, the pressure is in the form of very high work loads (without much obvious benefit) and competition to rack up AP classes, which don’t necessarily contribute much in the way of intellectual challenge, And these schools almost guarantee a kid in the top 10% is not going to get enough sleep or have very much fun. There is a much higher rate of depression and anxiety at these schools, and it disproportionately affects the top students.

Unless the “average” school is seriously deficient in quality of teaching and in opportunities offered, I’d choose that one any day. My daughter transferred out of a tippy-top public high school to finish her last two years at a lower prestige private school. She thrived there, and was able to take on a lot of independent study, participate in low key athletics, and continue to sing and play the piano, all while getting enough sleep and finishing second in her class.

The atypical thing here is that the IB school is apparently the less demanding one.

But IB, by its very nature, is more demanding and time-consuming than a typical high school program – even one that includes lots of honors and AP courses.

So the OP’s family is facing a rather unusual choice.

Except in Texas, where being in the top 5% does mean something for college acceptance.

Here is my personal experience. I attended/attend (I graduate in May) my local public high school which is very diverse and fairly poor. However, the school did offer enough AP and CIS classes so I was able to challenge myself and extracurricular activities such as sports and music with leadership opportunities. I definitely worked very hard throughout high school but I was never outrageously stressed. I will be one of 5 valedictorians. As for college I was accepted everywhere I applied, including some of the most competitive LAC’s in the country. I believe my school actually gave me an advantage. When college reps from places like Middlebury and Oberlin visited I was often the only student there to meet with them and got 1 on 1 time. College’s don’t want a ton of students from the same school and attending a diverse school is a plus in many of their eyes. My high school which many consider “underperforming” was perfect for me. In the end your child will determine their own outcome, not their high school. My cousin who attended a competitive suburban high school says she never wants to set foot in her high school again as it brings back too many stressful and upsetting memories. I look forward to returning to visit mine. Pick the place where your child will be happy.

What would you choose if you knew your child wasn’t going to go to college?

Yes I know manyIB schools that are far below average. Some are on the “failing school” lists over and over again. I’d choose the school with the strongest students. I would think you’d want your child to be surrounded by kids who value academics and whose families view academics and scholarship as essential. Its not all about comparisons and competition. Will a school filled with high achieving talented students mean that your kid will have more competition when it comes to applying for college? Maybe. But high school should never be mostly about how college applications should go. Placing your child in a school where he or she rules in terms of academics but has few peers who are your kids equal promises to offer more mines and other disasters than you can imagine. If you place your kid in a position to be surrounded by talented capable kids who value academics, you kid will probably develop friendships that make a difference to him or her throughout life. I did that for mine and I’ve never been more sure that a decision was the right one than that decision. The kids in that other school seem to all be in community colleges or the state public system now. How they can even pass classes after 4 years in that high school is beyond me!

Is there any way your daughter can go to the IB school for a day or so and sit in on the classes? My D did not have to switch schools for IB (our school has IB at the same school) but she was able to sit in on a days worth of classes. It was very helpful for her in determining the overall tone of classes, chatting with students, etc.

For us/D, IB was a welcome change. She was keeping her head above water with AP, but the crazy amount of busy work was just killing her passion for learning. True, she was surrounded by other kids who were as talented or more talented academically, but she felt she was just bubbling in answers and learning the material to regurgitate the information. She didn’t feel she was really being taught the information and really learning at the level she wanted to learn. It was truly sucking the life out of her.

IB is still a lot of work, but she seems more engaged and happier and more in control and she enjoys the dialogue, the writing and the presentations. IB seems to come in waves with a good week here and there and then a push of a few weeks with multiple IAs, outlines, papers, IOPs, etc. all due at once. For history, she reads the book and then is responsible for the material. The teacher does not make them write notes by hand (a ridiculous requirement if you ask me)…but she does take notes and she does study. Same for math. The teacher does not grade homework. Do the homework or not…at your own risk. For each six weeks she has two tests and that’s it…which in my opinion is actually more like college i.e. no raising your grade up for taking notes.

There are a few kids in the IB program who are very much not at the level of the rest of the class. It hasn’t hurt her or dragged her down in any way. She does her own thing and she has some peers now in IB who have very high standards for learning and doing well in school. These friendships are more collaborative vs. competitive in the way AP was.

Anyway, see if she can sit in on a class. See if the learning style matches hers. If it is something she is genuinely excited about and the quality of the IB program is good then let her do it. I was a little leery but I have to say…seeing the passion for learning come back to my kid has been a great thing as a parent.

IB will automatically be considered most rigorous by colleges (regardless of the school) and if the school is socio-economically diverse it’ll b seen as an asset by adcoms. In addition she’ll be getting enough sleep and she’ll likely meet the qualification thresholds for your state flagships. I don’t see the downside of school B with the IB program.

" attracts students who eventually want to go into medicine , its every competitive" - I would not worry too much about that … 8th grade decision time is a little early for med school tracking.

Tough choice. On the one hand, intense academics could give a clue whether a student wants such a tough college life. On the other hand, sometimes it can be bad to load on the coursework before maturity is there to handle it.

In our experience, you don’t need the school with the strongest students or the best test scores, but you do need a critical mass of smart engaged kids. I’d guess the IB program will have that. IB is great for a generalist with wide interests and provides a solid education for kids going into any field, but for some kids with strong interests in one area it may be frustrating. In your shoes I’d probably pick the IB program, but I’d want to sit in on classes in both, and not just judge by the rumor mill.