My son has just been accepted EA to UChicago, which is an awesome accomplishment. However, he is also interested in medical school. We are worried that the rigors of UC might push him off the science track, or that a “B” average from UC might not be recognized by medical schools as equivalent to a higher GPA from somewhere else. So, the question is, would he better better off going to an “easier” school like Wooster or Rhodes where (presumably) he would be a star with a higher GPA and stellar recommendations? Or, will medical schools evaluate GPAs based on the rigor of the college/university? There’s a fine line between wanting your kid to challenge himself vs. setting him/her up for failure. Overall, we think UC is a good fit, but it is VERY challenging from what I can tell, with very little grade inflation.
BTW, lets take the money factor out of the equation for now although I recognize merit money will be there for Wooster et al
Interested in medical school as in “I like science and I don’t know any scientists so maybe I’ll go to Med school” or “I am a certified paramedic and have been volunteering at the local hospital for three years and can’t see myself doing anything but emergency medicine for the rest of my life”?
Lots of kids think they want to go to med school. What happens if your son decides he wants to study economics or urban planning?
Any decent graduate program in any field is going to recognize that a B from a top school is harder to get than an A from a less rigorous one. I wouldn’t even be thinking about GPA at this point at all.Your son is going to college to learn, not to get grades, if that makes sense. Where does he want to go?
We have this discussion a lot in our house. If he wants to be a doctor, I’d say if he can’t hack the rigors of undergraduate at UC, then he probably won’t want to deal with the grind of med school.
The upside of a smaller pond is you feel super smart and your professors adore you. The downside is your peers are not as smart as you are and it can be difficult to connect with them. It depends on your temperament-some people like being the smartest person in the room. Some people roll well with feeling stupid all the time (seriously!), but come out the other end with a fairly excellent education.
I think there’s a balance, and I think there’s a whole spectrum of fish to pond ratios. Figuring out where in the dummy equation you want to be is really crucial, I think.
You want to be the dummy, or do you want to be friends with the dummies?
I exaggerate to illustrate a point (obviously nobody in college is truly a dummy).
Although there’s much to be learned yet about what my kid’s choices are, we’re starting this conversation now. Do you want to be in a small, supportive but potentially somewhat limited environment where you’re likely (though certainly not guaranteed) to excel, or in a bigger, more resource-rich, but also potentially overwhelming environment where at best you’ll take advantage of a fraction of the resources. No clear answers yet, but that’s the conversation.
@boatlift -there is a poster named curmudgeon who used to be very active on these boards whose daughter had a similar choice and went to Rhodes with merit money. She went from Rhodes to Yale Medical School. You might try to contact curmudgeon through private message and get some advice from him.
If you don’t have a hook or trust fund to carry you when you graduate at the bottom of your class (i.e. not a development case, pro-league destined recruited athlete, Nobel Prize winner at age 17), then it’s better to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond.
I think it has a lot to do with temperament. Some people are inspired and stretched by being surrounded by people who are competitive high-achievers. Others are demoralized. (And everything in between.) Hard for a 17/18-yo to figure out where they fit, but it’s worth thinking about.
I think being accepted early action means you are less likely to be the bottom of the class, but it is helpful to consider past behavior of your child (do they consistently work hard and smart at school, do they push themselves by taking hard classes, are they succeeding in a competitive high school or are they the big fish in the small pond with weak competition) as well as their current thinking (are they willing to work hard, do they want to party, socialize, participate in sports or other clubs). And the reaction to stress and competition varies from person to person.
Where is your kid on the distribution of say GPA and SATs versus the 25-75 percentile scores or even dig down further?
If your child is getting 5s of APs, that is another sign of a vigorous school, a hard worker, and readiness to succeed at a top school. If they are taking only AP stats and getting 3s … not so much.
Some kids will go to UChicago and be the top of their class and then get into their top med school picks and choice of residencies … others might not be that prepared, dedicated, hardworking and would do better at a lower tier school where they can get that 3.6 with a more moderate effort and a few setbacks.
For most people, money is also a factor if you are considering 4x70K for UG + 4x70K for med school. Otherwise, great for you. And, if I were truly rich and adverse to wildly difficult schools, why not apply to a cushy small private school with good academics and the right test scores to place junior right in the upper 60-70-80% while enjoying mint julips.
My daughter chose to be a small fish in the big pond. She was miserable for the first two months but then suddenly all of the pieces fit together and she is happier than she has ever been. Despite the size, her school is very nurturing and personalized. All of her professors know her name and a few email her regularly. She was recommended for a special class and one of her professors recommended her for a program junior year. I am beyond thrilled with her choice. When we started this process this is not where we thought she would be.
I was a medical school applicant who barely squeezed into medical school, and I am going to go ahead and put in a vote for a school where his stats put him at least in the middle.
If he’s a 4.0 student at UChicago, all the doors are open to him – he has a shot at the best MD schools in the United States. It’s worth noting that medical school prestige does carry some weight in residency admissions, but is not the be-all and end-all of residency placement.
If he’s a 3.0 student in UChicago, he’s looking at GPA enhancement programs and years (of ahem salary) lost. If not, he’s looking at an alternative career with a not-so-strong GPA (if he doesn’t abandon ship early enough) - not anyone’s favorite spot.
If he’s a 3.5 student at UChicago, he’s looking at maybe going to his state school (hey, not bad) or, if his interview(s) doesn’t go so hot at however many state schools your state offers, to bottom-tier, overpriced private schools and/or out-of-state schools. They may be in downright undesirable regions – there may be culture shock, it may be far from family, etc – but he will have no choice.
Medical schools do account for strength of UG training, but much less than they should, in my opinion. My n=1 is an HYP student with a 3.3 in a STEM field and a 40+ in the old MCAT – one acceptance at his father’s alma mater only. I also know many students from a public ivy with a 3.3 who had to do several admission rounds.
It’s hard to say which student he will be, but I think he needs to decide for himself. It may be telling that if he wants an undergraduate experience of UChicago more than medicine – and that’s fine.
There are some top 20 schools with grade inflation and I would feel more comfortable with the odds of coming out with a respectable GPA from those schools. I don’t know if that’s the right way to do it, but that’s the way it is right now.
It depends. In this particular instance I’m referring to more limited course options due to smaller department size due to smaller school. Quite possibly EXACTLY THE RIGHT AMOUNT of course options for a four-year stay, but still limited.
“My son has just been accepted EA to UChicago, which is an awesome accomplishment. However, he is also interested in medical school.”
First, big congrats. Second, keep in mind that Med. Schools do not care about the name of your UG. They care about college GPA, MCAT score, medical ECs and somewhat mature and social personality.
You may not recognize now how important money factor is, but let me give you some heads up on what is ahead. Close to graduation from Med. School, my D. started mentioning one fact. Many in her private medical school class all of a sudden realized (looking back and comparing themselves to classmates) that their education at Harvard and other elite places puts them at disadvantage while giving them nothing in return, no advantages, having Harvard as an UG on resume did not influence their academics and other experiences at medical school, it did not influence their residency match either. It influenced one important side of their lives - financial. Not many families out there can pay for both UG and Medical school shedding some $600k+ on one kid’s education. Well, maybe if a parent is a plastic surgeon himself, (maybe?) it is the case. So, most of these student graduated from medical school with about $300k debt (maybe lower if family was partially subsidizing). Few did not have debt I do not know how they accomplished that, but in our case, we simply told our D. to choose her medical school disregarding the cost as we were ready to pay her med. school tuition because she choose to attend at in-state public UG on full tuition Merit. NO MORE TALK ABOUT MONEY, promise.
OK, D. is a first year resident now, but we keep discussing the subject as her niece is applying to college next year. D. still believes that she attended college that matched her personally and her very wide range of her interest the best. Frankly, we were surprised by all opportunities that she had there and she took advantage of every one of them. Do not get me wrong. The academics were tough. much tougher than at D’s private HS. She was shocked by the fact that she had to step up the efforts considerably at college after graduating #1 from the private HS that happen to be #2 private school in our state. Those who did not realize that the adjustments are due were derailed from the pre-med track, many of them were HS valedictorians in Honors college that accepted only top 200 applicants who were top 2% of HS class with the ACT=31+. Were they “big fish in a small pond”? I do not know, they definitely did not feel so sitting in the lecture in the very first Bio class. They were warned about NOT skipping this class even if they had the college credit having 5 on AP Bio exam. Well, they did not skip the class, but passing it with the grade higher than C was not walk in a park at all. This obstacle was insurmountable for good number of them and they had to find another career for themselves right after the first semester of the freshman year at in-state public college.
At the end only your family can decide. After all, my story is just one story about my D. and many of her close friends who attended at various colleges, most did not pay much for them, and who currently residents or graduating from medical schools in 2016.
Best wishes to your S. on that very very tough road!
Thank you for these incredibly insightful comments. Clearly it depends on the kid, so let me give you a few more details. Also curious if anyone has any thoughts about the other schools he has applied to. My S is not into sports, or the performing arts. He is a great and well rounded student who likes scary movies, the Kardasians, and infectious diseases (those last two may be related). He is the token Caucasian among a group of friends that are all high achieving. As with most kids like this, his politics are far left of center. So, all things considered, UChicago may be his tribe. His ACT was 34 and his GPA is stellar, but he is an introvert/perfectionist, who can struggle with self-esteem and stress. So, I worry about the workload/competition at UC. His other options are Wooster, Rhodes, Ohio Wesleyan (who have or will offer him $$). He has also applied to Davidson, Emory (we also like the Oxford campus), Kenyon, Middlebury, and Wash U. Among these, he likes Emory and Davidson best. I like Kenyon but others say it’s more liberal than the others. I really love Davidson but worry that the culture is too jock oriented? (and he may not get in). Appreciate any thoughts…